Minimal pair [y] - [y:] in Latin
Are there minimal pairs distinguished only by length of [y] in Latin? Was the short variant of /y/ pronounced like [ʏ]?
classical-latin phonology
asked 4 hours ago
Дмитрий Борисов
283
New contributor
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
Are there minimal pairs distinguished only by length of [y] in Latin? Was the short variant of /y/ pronounced like [ʏ]?
classical-latin phonology
asked 4 hours ago
Дмитрий Борисов
283
New contributor
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
Are there minimal pairs distinguished only by length of [y] in Latin? Was the short variant of /y/ pronounced like [ʏ]?
classical-latin phonology
asked 4 hours ago
Дмитрий Борисов
283
New contributor
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Are there minimal pairs distinguished only by length of [y] in Latin? Was the short variant of /y/ pronounced like [ʏ]?
classical-latin phonology
classical-latin phonology
asked 4 hours ago
Дмитрий Борисов
283
New contributor
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
Дмитрий Борисов
283
New contributor
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
Дмитрий Борисов
283
New contributor
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
Дмитрий Борисов
283
asked 4 hours ago
Дмитрий Борисов
283
283
New contributor
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered 2 hours ago
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
45.5k1058262
add a comment |
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelic
6,42511344
add a comment |
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered 1 hour ago
varro
3,1531213
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "644"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flatin.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f8794%2fminimal-pair-y-y-in-latin%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered 2 hours ago
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
45.5k1058262
add a comment |
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered 2 hours ago
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
45.5k1058262
add a comment |
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered 2 hours ago
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
45.5k1058262
Great question!
I was previously unaware of any such pair, but browsing Lewis and Short (available online in various forms) brought up these:
lўsis: loosening, rupture, talon, ogee
Lўsis: a Pythagorean of Tarentum, instructor of Epaminondas
Lȳsis: a small river in Asia Minor
The letter is so rare in Latin that I doubt there are examples without Greek names.
answered 2 hours ago
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
45.5k1058262
answered 2 hours ago
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
45.5k1058262
answered 2 hours ago
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
45.5k1058262
answered 2 hours ago
Joonas Ilmavirta♦
45.5k1058262
45.5k1058262
add a comment |
add a comment |
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelic
6,42511344
add a comment |
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelic
6,42511344
add a comment |
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelic
6,42511344
The existence of /y/ and /y:/ in Classical Latin is mainly postulated as a part of non-nativized pronunciations for loanwords from Greek. Vowel length was phonemically distinctive for Y in Greek, and it was accordingly distinctive in Latin as well.
In the popular language, it is thought that merger with /i/ and /i:/ was a possibility already in classical times.
My impression is that it is rather difficult to determine at which points in time Latin did or did not have qualitative distinctions between corresponding long and short vowels. It does seem plausible that [ʏ] would have been used alongside [ɪ] and [ʊ], but I don’t think we really have any actual evidence for this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelic
6,42511344
answered 2 hours ago
sumelic
6,42511344
answered 2 hours ago
sumelic
6,42511344
answered 2 hours ago
sumelic
6,42511344
6,42511344
add a comment |
add a comment |
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered 1 hour ago
varro
3,1531213
add a comment |
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered 1 hour ago
varro
3,1531213
add a comment |
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered 1 hour ago
varro
3,1531213
With respect to latter portion of the question only, I agree with @sumelic's answer that it is unlikely we have actual evidence of a qualitative difference between /y:/ and /y/, but I will supplement that with the following considerations:
1) It is generally thought that the Latin high vowels were somewhat lowered in Classical times to [ɪ] and [ʊ]. If that was the case, I think there would be a natural tendency to lower short Y too, to [ʏ].
2) On the other hand, /y/ was not a native Latin sound, and I've never seen any evidence that Greek short ι and υ were qualitatively any different from their long equivalents. That being the case, an educated Latin speaker would be likely to pronounce short Y as in Greek, viz. [y].
So, I think there are arguments for both possibilities, and it's quite likely (in my opinion) that both could be used by different speakers.
answered 1 hour ago
varro
3,1531213
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
varro
3,1531213
answered 1 hour ago
varro
3,1531213
answered 1 hour ago
varro
3,1531213
3,1531213
add a comment |
add a comment |
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Дмитрий Борисов is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to Latin Language Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flatin.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f8794%2fminimal-pair-y-y-in-latin%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
