For the linguists among us: I like loud singing vs I like singing loudly
1
Can you explain why using "loud" as either an adjective or an adverb changes the meaning of the sentence. Is it just an English convention, or is there something deeper going on?
I like loud singing = I like turning the volume up on my stereo
I like singing loudly = I break wine glasses when I sing in the shower
meaning parts-of-speech syntactic-analysis noun-phrases gerund-phrases
edited 10 hours ago
tchrist♦
108k28290463
asked 12 hours ago
Joseph O.
1127
add a comment |
1
Can you explain why using "loud" as either an adjective or an adverb changes the meaning of the sentence. Is it just an English convention, or is there something deeper going on?
I like loud singing = I like turning the volume up on my stereo
I like singing loudly = I break wine glasses when I sing in the shower
meaning parts-of-speech syntactic-analysis noun-phrases gerund-phrases
edited 10 hours ago
tchrist♦
108k28290463
asked 12 hours ago
Joseph O.
1127
Great question! I don't see a logic for it.
– Johnny
12 hours ago
Because the gerund case is just another verb with the same subject as the main one, but the adjective is not a verb so there is no subject expressed.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
Related: english.stackexchange.com/a/479169 english.stackexchange.com/q/66 english.stackexchange.com/q/346877 english.stackexchange.com/q/388099 english.stackexchange.com/q/428552 english.stackexchange.com/q/435916 english.stackexchange.com/q/428044 english.stackexchange.com/q/154886 english.stackexchange.com/q/366906 english.stackexchange.com/q/13860 english.stackexchange.com/q/148670 english.stackexchange.com/q/358212
– tchrist♦
11 hours ago
1
Isn’t this a duplicate of Does a verbal noun turn back into a verb when modified by an adverb??
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
@tchrist I don't think so. My question is semantic. I want to know if there is a grammatical/ linguistic reason why the meaning of the sentence changes so drastically. I only looked at three of them though. I'll look at more to make sure.
– Joseph O.
10 hours ago
add a comment |
1
1
1
Can you explain why using "loud" as either an adjective or an adverb changes the meaning of the sentence. Is it just an English convention, or is there something deeper going on?
I like loud singing = I like turning the volume up on my stereo
I like singing loudly = I break wine glasses when I sing in the shower
meaning parts-of-speech syntactic-analysis noun-phrases gerund-phrases
edited 10 hours ago
tchrist♦
108k28290463
asked 12 hours ago
Joseph O.
1127
Can you explain why using "loud" as either an adjective or an adverb changes the meaning of the sentence. Is it just an English convention, or is there something deeper going on?
I like loud singing = I like turning the volume up on my stereo
I like singing loudly = I break wine glasses when I sing in the shower
meaning parts-of-speech syntactic-analysis noun-phrases gerund-phrases
meaning parts-of-speech syntactic-analysis noun-phrases gerund-phrases
edited 10 hours ago
tchrist♦
108k28290463
asked 12 hours ago
Joseph O.
1127
edited 10 hours ago
tchrist♦
108k28290463
asked 12 hours ago
Joseph O.
1127
edited 10 hours ago
tchrist♦
108k28290463
edited 10 hours ago
tchrist♦
108k28290463
edited 10 hours ago
tchrist♦
108k28290463
108k28290463
asked 12 hours ago
Joseph O.
1127
asked 12 hours ago
Joseph O.
1127
asked 12 hours ago
Joseph O.
1127
1127
Great question! I don't see a logic for it.
– Johnny
12 hours ago
Because the gerund case is just another verb with the same subject as the main one, but the adjective is not a verb so there is no subject expressed.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
Related: english.stackexchange.com/a/479169 english.stackexchange.com/q/66 english.stackexchange.com/q/346877 english.stackexchange.com/q/388099 english.stackexchange.com/q/428552 english.stackexchange.com/q/435916 english.stackexchange.com/q/428044 english.stackexchange.com/q/154886 english.stackexchange.com/q/366906 english.stackexchange.com/q/13860 english.stackexchange.com/q/148670 english.stackexchange.com/q/358212
– tchrist♦
11 hours ago
1
Isn’t this a duplicate of Does a verbal noun turn back into a verb when modified by an adverb??
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
@tchrist I don't think so. My question is semantic. I want to know if there is a grammatical/ linguistic reason why the meaning of the sentence changes so drastically. I only looked at three of them though. I'll look at more to make sure.
– Joseph O.
10 hours ago
add a comment |
Great question! I don't see a logic for it.
– Johnny
12 hours ago
Because the gerund case is just another verb with the same subject as the main one, but the adjective is not a verb so there is no subject expressed.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
Related: english.stackexchange.com/a/479169 english.stackexchange.com/q/66 english.stackexchange.com/q/346877 english.stackexchange.com/q/388099 english.stackexchange.com/q/428552 english.stackexchange.com/q/435916 english.stackexchange.com/q/428044 english.stackexchange.com/q/154886 english.stackexchange.com/q/366906 english.stackexchange.com/q/13860 english.stackexchange.com/q/148670 english.stackexchange.com/q/358212
– tchrist♦
11 hours ago
1
Isn’t this a duplicate of Does a verbal noun turn back into a verb when modified by an adverb??
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
@tchrist I don't think so. My question is semantic. I want to know if there is a grammatical/ linguistic reason why the meaning of the sentence changes so drastically. I only looked at three of them though. I'll look at more to make sure.
– Joseph O.
10 hours ago
Great question! I don't see a logic for it.
– Johnny
12 hours ago
Great question! I don't see a logic for it.
– Johnny
12 hours ago
Because the gerund case is just another verb with the same subject as the main one, but the adjective is not a verb so there is no subject expressed.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
Because the gerund case is just another verb with the same subject as the main one, but the adjective is not a verb so there is no subject expressed.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
Related: english.stackexchange.com/a/479169 english.stackexchange.com/q/66 english.stackexchange.com/q/346877 english.stackexchange.com/q/388099 english.stackexchange.com/q/428552 english.stackexchange.com/q/435916 english.stackexchange.com/q/428044 english.stackexchange.com/q/154886 english.stackexchange.com/q/366906 english.stackexchange.com/q/13860 english.stackexchange.com/q/148670 english.stackexchange.com/q/358212
– tchrist♦
11 hours ago
Related: english.stackexchange.com/a/479169 english.stackexchange.com/q/66 english.stackexchange.com/q/346877 english.stackexchange.com/q/388099 english.stackexchange.com/q/428552 english.stackexchange.com/q/435916 english.stackexchange.com/q/428044 english.stackexchange.com/q/154886 english.stackexchange.com/q/366906 english.stackexchange.com/q/13860 english.stackexchange.com/q/148670 english.stackexchange.com/q/358212
– tchrist♦
11 hours ago
1
1
Isn’t this a duplicate of Does a verbal noun turn back into a verb when modified by an adverb??
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
Isn’t this a duplicate of Does a verbal noun turn back into a verb when modified by an adverb??
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
@tchrist I don't think so. My question is semantic. I want to know if there is a grammatical/ linguistic reason why the meaning of the sentence changes so drastically. I only looked at three of them though. I'll look at more to make sure.
– Joseph O.
10 hours ago
@tchrist I don't think so. My question is semantic. I want to know if there is a grammatical/ linguistic reason why the meaning of the sentence changes so drastically. I only looked at three of them though. I'll look at more to make sure.
– Joseph O.
10 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
2
Oh, I think I figured it out. :-)
I like singing loudly
Singing is a verb, and as we know, an adverb (loudly) modifies a verb.
I like loud singing
Singing is a gerund (verb functioning as a noun), modified by the adjective, loud.
And there's the kernel of your answer:
I like walking.
I like dancing.
Etc., these are things that I like doing. Here's another example of the same phenomenon. Compare:
I like guitar playing.
I like playing guitar.
...playing as a verb vs. playing as a gerund.
answered 12 hours ago
Johnny
1276
New contributor
Johnny is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Gerunds are verbs so they can take complements and adverbs as in playing guitar loudly. But when you have a deverbal noun, it can no longer take those things; instead as a mere noun it now takes articles, adjectives, and attributive nouns the way you have with good guitar playing, where playing is a deverbal noun (not a gerund!) modified by the noun guitar used attributively.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
@tchrist I want to understand you but you are a pretty technical in your explanations. Are you saying that singing or playing are not both gerunds in the two situations described, but one is called a gerund and one is called a deverbal noun (which I am unfamiliar with). Am I right?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
@Johnny Thanks for your answer. I thought both situations involved gerunds so I'm going to wait on tchrist to shed some light on this. Said another way, how can modifiers change the grammar of the word they are modifying?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
1
@JosephO. Yes, I am. In modern analysis, we distinguish words whose form is that of the -ing inflection of a verb according to their function. If they accept complements and adverbs, then they’re still verbs no matter whether the entire phrase is used as a nominative phrase or as a modifier phrase. When they lose their verbness, they become deverbal nouns or deverbal adjectives. When you have a lone word without any words around it, it can be ambiguous whether it’s still a verb in all its glory or whether has been unverbed into a mere noun or adjective. There may be some adverbs, too, IIRC.
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
add a comment |
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2
Oh, I think I figured it out. :-)
I like singing loudly
Singing is a verb, and as we know, an adverb (loudly) modifies a verb.
I like loud singing
Singing is a gerund (verb functioning as a noun), modified by the adjective, loud.
And there's the kernel of your answer:
I like walking.
I like dancing.
Etc., these are things that I like doing. Here's another example of the same phenomenon. Compare:
I like guitar playing.
I like playing guitar.
...playing as a verb vs. playing as a gerund.
answered 12 hours ago
Johnny
1276
New contributor
Johnny is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Gerunds are verbs so they can take complements and adverbs as in playing guitar loudly. But when you have a deverbal noun, it can no longer take those things; instead as a mere noun it now takes articles, adjectives, and attributive nouns the way you have with good guitar playing, where playing is a deverbal noun (not a gerund!) modified by the noun guitar used attributively.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
@tchrist I want to understand you but you are a pretty technical in your explanations. Are you saying that singing or playing are not both gerunds in the two situations described, but one is called a gerund and one is called a deverbal noun (which I am unfamiliar with). Am I right?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
@Johnny Thanks for your answer. I thought both situations involved gerunds so I'm going to wait on tchrist to shed some light on this. Said another way, how can modifiers change the grammar of the word they are modifying?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
1
@JosephO. Yes, I am. In modern analysis, we distinguish words whose form is that of the -ing inflection of a verb according to their function. If they accept complements and adverbs, then they’re still verbs no matter whether the entire phrase is used as a nominative phrase or as a modifier phrase. When they lose their verbness, they become deverbal nouns or deverbal adjectives. When you have a lone word without any words around it, it can be ambiguous whether it’s still a verb in all its glory or whether has been unverbed into a mere noun or adjective. There may be some adverbs, too, IIRC.
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
add a comment |
2
Oh, I think I figured it out. :-)
I like singing loudly
Singing is a verb, and as we know, an adverb (loudly) modifies a verb.
I like loud singing
Singing is a gerund (verb functioning as a noun), modified by the adjective, loud.
And there's the kernel of your answer:
I like walking.
I like dancing.
Etc., these are things that I like doing. Here's another example of the same phenomenon. Compare:
I like guitar playing.
I like playing guitar.
...playing as a verb vs. playing as a gerund.
answered 12 hours ago
Johnny
1276
New contributor
Johnny is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Gerunds are verbs so they can take complements and adverbs as in playing guitar loudly. But when you have a deverbal noun, it can no longer take those things; instead as a mere noun it now takes articles, adjectives, and attributive nouns the way you have with good guitar playing, where playing is a deverbal noun (not a gerund!) modified by the noun guitar used attributively.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
@tchrist I want to understand you but you are a pretty technical in your explanations. Are you saying that singing or playing are not both gerunds in the two situations described, but one is called a gerund and one is called a deverbal noun (which I am unfamiliar with). Am I right?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
@Johnny Thanks for your answer. I thought both situations involved gerunds so I'm going to wait on tchrist to shed some light on this. Said another way, how can modifiers change the grammar of the word they are modifying?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
1
@JosephO. Yes, I am. In modern analysis, we distinguish words whose form is that of the -ing inflection of a verb according to their function. If they accept complements and adverbs, then they’re still verbs no matter whether the entire phrase is used as a nominative phrase or as a modifier phrase. When they lose their verbness, they become deverbal nouns or deverbal adjectives. When you have a lone word without any words around it, it can be ambiguous whether it’s still a verb in all its glory or whether has been unverbed into a mere noun or adjective. There may be some adverbs, too, IIRC.
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
add a comment |
2
2
2
Oh, I think I figured it out. :-)
I like singing loudly
Singing is a verb, and as we know, an adverb (loudly) modifies a verb.
I like loud singing
Singing is a gerund (verb functioning as a noun), modified by the adjective, loud.
And there's the kernel of your answer:
I like walking.
I like dancing.
Etc., these are things that I like doing. Here's another example of the same phenomenon. Compare:
I like guitar playing.
I like playing guitar.
...playing as a verb vs. playing as a gerund.
answered 12 hours ago
Johnny
1276
New contributor
Johnny is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Oh, I think I figured it out. :-)
I like singing loudly
Singing is a verb, and as we know, an adverb (loudly) modifies a verb.
I like loud singing
Singing is a gerund (verb functioning as a noun), modified by the adjective, loud.
And there's the kernel of your answer:
I like walking.
I like dancing.
Etc., these are things that I like doing. Here's another example of the same phenomenon. Compare:
I like guitar playing.
I like playing guitar.
...playing as a verb vs. playing as a gerund.
answered 12 hours ago
Johnny
1276
New contributor
Johnny is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 12 hours ago
Johnny
1276
New contributor
Johnny is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 12 hours ago
Johnny
1276
answered 12 hours ago
Johnny
1276
1276
New contributor
Johnny is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Johnny is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Johnny is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Gerunds are verbs so they can take complements and adverbs as in playing guitar loudly. But when you have a deverbal noun, it can no longer take those things; instead as a mere noun it now takes articles, adjectives, and attributive nouns the way you have with good guitar playing, where playing is a deverbal noun (not a gerund!) modified by the noun guitar used attributively.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
@tchrist I want to understand you but you are a pretty technical in your explanations. Are you saying that singing or playing are not both gerunds in the two situations described, but one is called a gerund and one is called a deverbal noun (which I am unfamiliar with). Am I right?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
@Johnny Thanks for your answer. I thought both situations involved gerunds so I'm going to wait on tchrist to shed some light on this. Said another way, how can modifiers change the grammar of the word they are modifying?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
1
@JosephO. Yes, I am. In modern analysis, we distinguish words whose form is that of the -ing inflection of a verb according to their function. If they accept complements and adverbs, then they’re still verbs no matter whether the entire phrase is used as a nominative phrase or as a modifier phrase. When they lose their verbness, they become deverbal nouns or deverbal adjectives. When you have a lone word without any words around it, it can be ambiguous whether it’s still a verb in all its glory or whether has been unverbed into a mere noun or adjective. There may be some adverbs, too, IIRC.
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Gerunds are verbs so they can take complements and adverbs as in playing guitar loudly. But when you have a deverbal noun, it can no longer take those things; instead as a mere noun it now takes articles, adjectives, and attributive nouns the way you have with good guitar playing, where playing is a deverbal noun (not a gerund!) modified by the noun guitar used attributively.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
@tchrist I want to understand you but you are a pretty technical in your explanations. Are you saying that singing or playing are not both gerunds in the two situations described, but one is called a gerund and one is called a deverbal noun (which I am unfamiliar with). Am I right?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
@Johnny Thanks for your answer. I thought both situations involved gerunds so I'm going to wait on tchrist to shed some light on this. Said another way, how can modifiers change the grammar of the word they are modifying?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
1
@JosephO. Yes, I am. In modern analysis, we distinguish words whose form is that of the -ing inflection of a verb according to their function. If they accept complements and adverbs, then they’re still verbs no matter whether the entire phrase is used as a nominative phrase or as a modifier phrase. When they lose their verbness, they become deverbal nouns or deverbal adjectives. When you have a lone word without any words around it, it can be ambiguous whether it’s still a verb in all its glory or whether has been unverbed into a mere noun or adjective. There may be some adverbs, too, IIRC.
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
1
1
Gerunds are verbs so they can take complements and adverbs as in playing guitar loudly. But when you have a deverbal noun, it can no longer take those things; instead as a mere noun it now takes articles, adjectives, and attributive nouns the way you have with good guitar playing, where playing is a deverbal noun (not a gerund!) modified by the noun guitar used attributively.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
Gerunds are verbs so they can take complements and adverbs as in playing guitar loudly. But when you have a deverbal noun, it can no longer take those things; instead as a mere noun it now takes articles, adjectives, and attributive nouns the way you have with good guitar playing, where playing is a deverbal noun (not a gerund!) modified by the noun guitar used attributively.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
@tchrist I want to understand you but you are a pretty technical in your explanations. Are you saying that singing or playing are not both gerunds in the two situations described, but one is called a gerund and one is called a deverbal noun (which I am unfamiliar with). Am I right?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
@tchrist I want to understand you but you are a pretty technical in your explanations. Are you saying that singing or playing are not both gerunds in the two situations described, but one is called a gerund and one is called a deverbal noun (which I am unfamiliar with). Am I right?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
@Johnny Thanks for your answer. I thought both situations involved gerunds so I'm going to wait on tchrist to shed some light on this. Said another way, how can modifiers change the grammar of the word they are modifying?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
@Johnny Thanks for your answer. I thought both situations involved gerunds so I'm going to wait on tchrist to shed some light on this. Said another way, how can modifiers change the grammar of the word they are modifying?
– Joseph O.
12 hours ago
1
1
@JosephO. Yes, I am. In modern analysis, we distinguish words whose form is that of the -ing inflection of a verb according to their function. If they accept complements and adverbs, then they’re still verbs no matter whether the entire phrase is used as a nominative phrase or as a modifier phrase. When they lose their verbness, they become deverbal nouns or deverbal adjectives. When you have a lone word without any words around it, it can be ambiguous whether it’s still a verb in all its glory or whether has been unverbed into a mere noun or adjective. There may be some adverbs, too, IIRC.
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
@JosephO. Yes, I am. In modern analysis, we distinguish words whose form is that of the -ing inflection of a verb according to their function. If they accept complements and adverbs, then they’re still verbs no matter whether the entire phrase is used as a nominative phrase or as a modifier phrase. When they lose their verbness, they become deverbal nouns or deverbal adjectives. When you have a lone word without any words around it, it can be ambiguous whether it’s still a verb in all its glory or whether has been unverbed into a mere noun or adjective. There may be some adverbs, too, IIRC.
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
add a comment |
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Great question! I don't see a logic for it.
– Johnny
12 hours ago
Because the gerund case is just another verb with the same subject as the main one, but the adjective is not a verb so there is no subject expressed.
– tchrist♦
12 hours ago
Related: english.stackexchange.com/a/479169 english.stackexchange.com/q/66 english.stackexchange.com/q/346877 english.stackexchange.com/q/388099 english.stackexchange.com/q/428552 english.stackexchange.com/q/435916 english.stackexchange.com/q/428044 english.stackexchange.com/q/154886 english.stackexchange.com/q/366906 english.stackexchange.com/q/13860 english.stackexchange.com/q/148670 english.stackexchange.com/q/358212
– tchrist♦
11 hours ago
1
Isn’t this a duplicate of Does a verbal noun turn back into a verb when modified by an adverb??
– tchrist♦
10 hours ago
@tchrist I don't think so. My question is semantic. I want to know if there is a grammatical/ linguistic reason why the meaning of the sentence changes so drastically. I only looked at three of them though. I'll look at more to make sure.
– Joseph O.
10 hours ago