Would a compass with unmagnetized needle work?












3














We know that the needle that is used in a compass is a permanently magnetized ferromagnetic material and commonly steel is used.



If we used an unmagnetized iron needle instead, would it still align with Earth's magnetic field lines? If yes, how?










share|cite|improve this question






















  • Why would you think “yes”?
    – ZeroTheHero
    4 hours ago










  • With the magnetic field of Earth no
    – Alchimista
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @ZeroTheHero: Probably because they know that even an unmagnetised hunk of iron will still be attracted to a magnet, and they're applying this knowledge to a specific application of magnets.
    – Sean
    1 hour ago
















3














We know that the needle that is used in a compass is a permanently magnetized ferromagnetic material and commonly steel is used.



If we used an unmagnetized iron needle instead, would it still align with Earth's magnetic field lines? If yes, how?










share|cite|improve this question






















  • Why would you think “yes”?
    – ZeroTheHero
    4 hours ago










  • With the magnetic field of Earth no
    – Alchimista
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @ZeroTheHero: Probably because they know that even an unmagnetised hunk of iron will still be attracted to a magnet, and they're applying this knowledge to a specific application of magnets.
    – Sean
    1 hour ago














3












3








3


2





We know that the needle that is used in a compass is a permanently magnetized ferromagnetic material and commonly steel is used.



If we used an unmagnetized iron needle instead, would it still align with Earth's magnetic field lines? If yes, how?










share|cite|improve this question













We know that the needle that is used in a compass is a permanently magnetized ferromagnetic material and commonly steel is used.



If we used an unmagnetized iron needle instead, would it still align with Earth's magnetic field lines? If yes, how?







magnetic-fields ferromagnetism






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked 4 hours ago









physicsguy19

731116




731116












  • Why would you think “yes”?
    – ZeroTheHero
    4 hours ago










  • With the magnetic field of Earth no
    – Alchimista
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @ZeroTheHero: Probably because they know that even an unmagnetised hunk of iron will still be attracted to a magnet, and they're applying this knowledge to a specific application of magnets.
    – Sean
    1 hour ago


















  • Why would you think “yes”?
    – ZeroTheHero
    4 hours ago










  • With the magnetic field of Earth no
    – Alchimista
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @ZeroTheHero: Probably because they know that even an unmagnetised hunk of iron will still be attracted to a magnet, and they're applying this knowledge to a specific application of magnets.
    – Sean
    1 hour ago
















Why would you think “yes”?
– ZeroTheHero
4 hours ago




Why would you think “yes”?
– ZeroTheHero
4 hours ago












With the magnetic field of Earth no
– Alchimista
4 hours ago




With the magnetic field of Earth no
– Alchimista
4 hours ago




1




1




@ZeroTheHero: Probably because they know that even an unmagnetised hunk of iron will still be attracted to a magnet, and they're applying this knowledge to a specific application of magnets.
– Sean
1 hour ago




@ZeroTheHero: Probably because they know that even an unmagnetised hunk of iron will still be attracted to a magnet, and they're applying this knowledge to a specific application of magnets.
– Sean
1 hour ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















6














An unmagnetized needle made out of a permeable but not permanently magnetizable material will feel a force from the earth's field, but likely almost no torque about its center of mass. The force will be in the direction of the field's gradient, not in the direction of the field. The gradient of the earth's field is likely to be small and dominated by local irregularities, so this force will likely be both too small to measure and not useful for finding which way is north.



Iron is not only permeable but also able to be permanently magnetized. Physika's answer describes this possibility, and I learned from it that I didn't understand permanent magnets as well as I thought I did. It sounds like the earth's field is probably not strong enough to magnetize an iron needle that is originally unmagnetized. Therefore the analysis still plays out as in the first paragraph above.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • This isn't quite right. The induced magnetization would be in a pre-determined direction as dictated by the anisotropy energy, which is determined by the dimensions of the needle. For an object of this shape, it is most likely that the magnetization will be along the length of the needle.
    – Physika
    32 mins ago












  • @Physika: Thanks for the comment. I've edited my answer accordingly.
    – Ben Crowell
    21 mins ago



















5














A magnetic dipole would be induced in the iron bar and the iron bar would try and align itself along the magnetic field lines because of the torque applied on it by the interaction of the induced dipole and the Earth’s magnetic field.

However since the torque which was applied on the iron bar would be very small the chances are that there would not be an alignment even if you waited a long time.






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 2




    In the first paragraph, you seem to be assuming that the induced magnetization would be along the length of the bar, but I don't see any reason why that would be true. It could be in any random orientation relative to the bar's long dimension. The effect would then be that the bar would experience a torque that would tend to return it to whatever orientation it had when it was first able to be magnetized (e.g., at the time when the iron was first cooled below the Fermi temperature). You're then describing a bar that is magnetized, which is contrary to the question.
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • @BenCrowell I have assumed that the (soft) iron needle was initially unmagnetised and then has magnetism induced in It when placed in the Earth’s magnetic field. Where I think we disagree is that I assumed that magnetic poles will be induced near the ends of the iron needle whereas you do not? My assumption is based on my experience when an iron rod is suspended in a magnetic field much stronger than that of the Earth eg between the pole pieces of a horse shoe magnet.
    – Farcher
    56 mins ago



















2














For an unmagnetized iron needle to align with an external magnetic field, the field would need to be able to induce a magnetization in the needle. This is definitely possible with a large enough field.



If a naturally ferromagnetic material is unmagnetized, it still contains small magnetic domains inside. However, the sum of the magnetizations of all the domains is zero. If you apply a strong enough external field, the domains will align to the field. The following image is from the Wikipedia page on magnetic domains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain).



Magnetic domain alignment



Then the question is whether the Earth's magnetic field is strong enough to realign the domains in an iron needle. The Landau Free Energy is used to determine this, as the domains will align in whatever way minimizes this energy. Parameters that determine this energy include things like: size and shape of the needle, material (in this case iron), and external field strength.



If the external field is strong enough to cause magnetization, the direction of the induced magnetization will be in a direction that minimizes the anisotropy energy and is pre-determined by the dimensions of the needle. The dimensions give rise to an "easy" axis, meaning the free energy is lowest when the magnetization is in a particular direction. In general, this axis could be in-plane in the x or y direction, or perpendicular to the needle in the z direction. In a graph of energy versus angle of the magnetization from the easy axis, there will be two energy minima: one along the easy axis, and another at 180 degrees (still along the easy axis, just pointed in the opposite direction).



Anyway, I haven't done the calculation, but I don't think the Earth's field is strong enough to cause realignment of the domains. I would also like to mention that once the needle has been magnetized, if you remove the external field, the
needle will keep its magnetization. It would take the addition of a lot of energy to reorient the domains/magnetization that could come from a new external field, or even thermal energy.



For more information, here are some resources:
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain
2) Magnetism and Magnetic Materials by J.M.D. Coey. Sections on Landau Free Energy and maybe even the Stoner-Wohlfarth model would be enlightening.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • I learned some new things from this answer, +1. I've edited my answer to take this info into account and to point to this answer for more details.
    – Ben Crowell
    18 mins ago











Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "151"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});














draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f451368%2fwould-a-compass-with-unmagnetized-needle-work%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









6














An unmagnetized needle made out of a permeable but not permanently magnetizable material will feel a force from the earth's field, but likely almost no torque about its center of mass. The force will be in the direction of the field's gradient, not in the direction of the field. The gradient of the earth's field is likely to be small and dominated by local irregularities, so this force will likely be both too small to measure and not useful for finding which way is north.



Iron is not only permeable but also able to be permanently magnetized. Physika's answer describes this possibility, and I learned from it that I didn't understand permanent magnets as well as I thought I did. It sounds like the earth's field is probably not strong enough to magnetize an iron needle that is originally unmagnetized. Therefore the analysis still plays out as in the first paragraph above.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • This isn't quite right. The induced magnetization would be in a pre-determined direction as dictated by the anisotropy energy, which is determined by the dimensions of the needle. For an object of this shape, it is most likely that the magnetization will be along the length of the needle.
    – Physika
    32 mins ago












  • @Physika: Thanks for the comment. I've edited my answer accordingly.
    – Ben Crowell
    21 mins ago
















6














An unmagnetized needle made out of a permeable but not permanently magnetizable material will feel a force from the earth's field, but likely almost no torque about its center of mass. The force will be in the direction of the field's gradient, not in the direction of the field. The gradient of the earth's field is likely to be small and dominated by local irregularities, so this force will likely be both too small to measure and not useful for finding which way is north.



Iron is not only permeable but also able to be permanently magnetized. Physika's answer describes this possibility, and I learned from it that I didn't understand permanent magnets as well as I thought I did. It sounds like the earth's field is probably not strong enough to magnetize an iron needle that is originally unmagnetized. Therefore the analysis still plays out as in the first paragraph above.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • This isn't quite right. The induced magnetization would be in a pre-determined direction as dictated by the anisotropy energy, which is determined by the dimensions of the needle. For an object of this shape, it is most likely that the magnetization will be along the length of the needle.
    – Physika
    32 mins ago












  • @Physika: Thanks for the comment. I've edited my answer accordingly.
    – Ben Crowell
    21 mins ago














6












6








6






An unmagnetized needle made out of a permeable but not permanently magnetizable material will feel a force from the earth's field, but likely almost no torque about its center of mass. The force will be in the direction of the field's gradient, not in the direction of the field. The gradient of the earth's field is likely to be small and dominated by local irregularities, so this force will likely be both too small to measure and not useful for finding which way is north.



Iron is not only permeable but also able to be permanently magnetized. Physika's answer describes this possibility, and I learned from it that I didn't understand permanent magnets as well as I thought I did. It sounds like the earth's field is probably not strong enough to magnetize an iron needle that is originally unmagnetized. Therefore the analysis still plays out as in the first paragraph above.






share|cite|improve this answer














An unmagnetized needle made out of a permeable but not permanently magnetizable material will feel a force from the earth's field, but likely almost no torque about its center of mass. The force will be in the direction of the field's gradient, not in the direction of the field. The gradient of the earth's field is likely to be small and dominated by local irregularities, so this force will likely be both too small to measure and not useful for finding which way is north.



Iron is not only permeable but also able to be permanently magnetized. Physika's answer describes this possibility, and I learned from it that I didn't understand permanent magnets as well as I thought I did. It sounds like the earth's field is probably not strong enough to magnetize an iron needle that is originally unmagnetized. Therefore the analysis still plays out as in the first paragraph above.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited 17 mins ago

























answered 4 hours ago









Ben Crowell

48.4k4151292




48.4k4151292












  • This isn't quite right. The induced magnetization would be in a pre-determined direction as dictated by the anisotropy energy, which is determined by the dimensions of the needle. For an object of this shape, it is most likely that the magnetization will be along the length of the needle.
    – Physika
    32 mins ago












  • @Physika: Thanks for the comment. I've edited my answer accordingly.
    – Ben Crowell
    21 mins ago


















  • This isn't quite right. The induced magnetization would be in a pre-determined direction as dictated by the anisotropy energy, which is determined by the dimensions of the needle. For an object of this shape, it is most likely that the magnetization will be along the length of the needle.
    – Physika
    32 mins ago












  • @Physika: Thanks for the comment. I've edited my answer accordingly.
    – Ben Crowell
    21 mins ago
















This isn't quite right. The induced magnetization would be in a pre-determined direction as dictated by the anisotropy energy, which is determined by the dimensions of the needle. For an object of this shape, it is most likely that the magnetization will be along the length of the needle.
– Physika
32 mins ago






This isn't quite right. The induced magnetization would be in a pre-determined direction as dictated by the anisotropy energy, which is determined by the dimensions of the needle. For an object of this shape, it is most likely that the magnetization will be along the length of the needle.
– Physika
32 mins ago














@Physika: Thanks for the comment. I've edited my answer accordingly.
– Ben Crowell
21 mins ago




@Physika: Thanks for the comment. I've edited my answer accordingly.
– Ben Crowell
21 mins ago











5














A magnetic dipole would be induced in the iron bar and the iron bar would try and align itself along the magnetic field lines because of the torque applied on it by the interaction of the induced dipole and the Earth’s magnetic field.

However since the torque which was applied on the iron bar would be very small the chances are that there would not be an alignment even if you waited a long time.






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 2




    In the first paragraph, you seem to be assuming that the induced magnetization would be along the length of the bar, but I don't see any reason why that would be true. It could be in any random orientation relative to the bar's long dimension. The effect would then be that the bar would experience a torque that would tend to return it to whatever orientation it had when it was first able to be magnetized (e.g., at the time when the iron was first cooled below the Fermi temperature). You're then describing a bar that is magnetized, which is contrary to the question.
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • @BenCrowell I have assumed that the (soft) iron needle was initially unmagnetised and then has magnetism induced in It when placed in the Earth’s magnetic field. Where I think we disagree is that I assumed that magnetic poles will be induced near the ends of the iron needle whereas you do not? My assumption is based on my experience when an iron rod is suspended in a magnetic field much stronger than that of the Earth eg between the pole pieces of a horse shoe magnet.
    – Farcher
    56 mins ago
















5














A magnetic dipole would be induced in the iron bar and the iron bar would try and align itself along the magnetic field lines because of the torque applied on it by the interaction of the induced dipole and the Earth’s magnetic field.

However since the torque which was applied on the iron bar would be very small the chances are that there would not be an alignment even if you waited a long time.






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 2




    In the first paragraph, you seem to be assuming that the induced magnetization would be along the length of the bar, but I don't see any reason why that would be true. It could be in any random orientation relative to the bar's long dimension. The effect would then be that the bar would experience a torque that would tend to return it to whatever orientation it had when it was first able to be magnetized (e.g., at the time when the iron was first cooled below the Fermi temperature). You're then describing a bar that is magnetized, which is contrary to the question.
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • @BenCrowell I have assumed that the (soft) iron needle was initially unmagnetised and then has magnetism induced in It when placed in the Earth’s magnetic field. Where I think we disagree is that I assumed that magnetic poles will be induced near the ends of the iron needle whereas you do not? My assumption is based on my experience when an iron rod is suspended in a magnetic field much stronger than that of the Earth eg between the pole pieces of a horse shoe magnet.
    – Farcher
    56 mins ago














5












5








5






A magnetic dipole would be induced in the iron bar and the iron bar would try and align itself along the magnetic field lines because of the torque applied on it by the interaction of the induced dipole and the Earth’s magnetic field.

However since the torque which was applied on the iron bar would be very small the chances are that there would not be an alignment even if you waited a long time.






share|cite|improve this answer












A magnetic dipole would be induced in the iron bar and the iron bar would try and align itself along the magnetic field lines because of the torque applied on it by the interaction of the induced dipole and the Earth’s magnetic field.

However since the torque which was applied on the iron bar would be very small the chances are that there would not be an alignment even if you waited a long time.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered 3 hours ago









Farcher

47.5k33696




47.5k33696








  • 2




    In the first paragraph, you seem to be assuming that the induced magnetization would be along the length of the bar, but I don't see any reason why that would be true. It could be in any random orientation relative to the bar's long dimension. The effect would then be that the bar would experience a torque that would tend to return it to whatever orientation it had when it was first able to be magnetized (e.g., at the time when the iron was first cooled below the Fermi temperature). You're then describing a bar that is magnetized, which is contrary to the question.
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • @BenCrowell I have assumed that the (soft) iron needle was initially unmagnetised and then has magnetism induced in It when placed in the Earth’s magnetic field. Where I think we disagree is that I assumed that magnetic poles will be induced near the ends of the iron needle whereas you do not? My assumption is based on my experience when an iron rod is suspended in a magnetic field much stronger than that of the Earth eg between the pole pieces of a horse shoe magnet.
    – Farcher
    56 mins ago














  • 2




    In the first paragraph, you seem to be assuming that the induced magnetization would be along the length of the bar, but I don't see any reason why that would be true. It could be in any random orientation relative to the bar's long dimension. The effect would then be that the bar would experience a torque that would tend to return it to whatever orientation it had when it was first able to be magnetized (e.g., at the time when the iron was first cooled below the Fermi temperature). You're then describing a bar that is magnetized, which is contrary to the question.
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • @BenCrowell I have assumed that the (soft) iron needle was initially unmagnetised and then has magnetism induced in It when placed in the Earth’s magnetic field. Where I think we disagree is that I assumed that magnetic poles will be induced near the ends of the iron needle whereas you do not? My assumption is based on my experience when an iron rod is suspended in a magnetic field much stronger than that of the Earth eg between the pole pieces of a horse shoe magnet.
    – Farcher
    56 mins ago








2




2




In the first paragraph, you seem to be assuming that the induced magnetization would be along the length of the bar, but I don't see any reason why that would be true. It could be in any random orientation relative to the bar's long dimension. The effect would then be that the bar would experience a torque that would tend to return it to whatever orientation it had when it was first able to be magnetized (e.g., at the time when the iron was first cooled below the Fermi temperature). You're then describing a bar that is magnetized, which is contrary to the question.
– Ben Crowell
1 hour ago




In the first paragraph, you seem to be assuming that the induced magnetization would be along the length of the bar, but I don't see any reason why that would be true. It could be in any random orientation relative to the bar's long dimension. The effect would then be that the bar would experience a torque that would tend to return it to whatever orientation it had when it was first able to be magnetized (e.g., at the time when the iron was first cooled below the Fermi temperature). You're then describing a bar that is magnetized, which is contrary to the question.
– Ben Crowell
1 hour ago












@BenCrowell I have assumed that the (soft) iron needle was initially unmagnetised and then has magnetism induced in It when placed in the Earth’s magnetic field. Where I think we disagree is that I assumed that magnetic poles will be induced near the ends of the iron needle whereas you do not? My assumption is based on my experience when an iron rod is suspended in a magnetic field much stronger than that of the Earth eg between the pole pieces of a horse shoe magnet.
– Farcher
56 mins ago




@BenCrowell I have assumed that the (soft) iron needle was initially unmagnetised and then has magnetism induced in It when placed in the Earth’s magnetic field. Where I think we disagree is that I assumed that magnetic poles will be induced near the ends of the iron needle whereas you do not? My assumption is based on my experience when an iron rod is suspended in a magnetic field much stronger than that of the Earth eg between the pole pieces of a horse shoe magnet.
– Farcher
56 mins ago











2














For an unmagnetized iron needle to align with an external magnetic field, the field would need to be able to induce a magnetization in the needle. This is definitely possible with a large enough field.



If a naturally ferromagnetic material is unmagnetized, it still contains small magnetic domains inside. However, the sum of the magnetizations of all the domains is zero. If you apply a strong enough external field, the domains will align to the field. The following image is from the Wikipedia page on magnetic domains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain).



Magnetic domain alignment



Then the question is whether the Earth's magnetic field is strong enough to realign the domains in an iron needle. The Landau Free Energy is used to determine this, as the domains will align in whatever way minimizes this energy. Parameters that determine this energy include things like: size and shape of the needle, material (in this case iron), and external field strength.



If the external field is strong enough to cause magnetization, the direction of the induced magnetization will be in a direction that minimizes the anisotropy energy and is pre-determined by the dimensions of the needle. The dimensions give rise to an "easy" axis, meaning the free energy is lowest when the magnetization is in a particular direction. In general, this axis could be in-plane in the x or y direction, or perpendicular to the needle in the z direction. In a graph of energy versus angle of the magnetization from the easy axis, there will be two energy minima: one along the easy axis, and another at 180 degrees (still along the easy axis, just pointed in the opposite direction).



Anyway, I haven't done the calculation, but I don't think the Earth's field is strong enough to cause realignment of the domains. I would also like to mention that once the needle has been magnetized, if you remove the external field, the
needle will keep its magnetization. It would take the addition of a lot of energy to reorient the domains/magnetization that could come from a new external field, or even thermal energy.



For more information, here are some resources:
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain
2) Magnetism and Magnetic Materials by J.M.D. Coey. Sections on Landau Free Energy and maybe even the Stoner-Wohlfarth model would be enlightening.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • I learned some new things from this answer, +1. I've edited my answer to take this info into account and to point to this answer for more details.
    – Ben Crowell
    18 mins ago
















2














For an unmagnetized iron needle to align with an external magnetic field, the field would need to be able to induce a magnetization in the needle. This is definitely possible with a large enough field.



If a naturally ferromagnetic material is unmagnetized, it still contains small magnetic domains inside. However, the sum of the magnetizations of all the domains is zero. If you apply a strong enough external field, the domains will align to the field. The following image is from the Wikipedia page on magnetic domains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain).



Magnetic domain alignment



Then the question is whether the Earth's magnetic field is strong enough to realign the domains in an iron needle. The Landau Free Energy is used to determine this, as the domains will align in whatever way minimizes this energy. Parameters that determine this energy include things like: size and shape of the needle, material (in this case iron), and external field strength.



If the external field is strong enough to cause magnetization, the direction of the induced magnetization will be in a direction that minimizes the anisotropy energy and is pre-determined by the dimensions of the needle. The dimensions give rise to an "easy" axis, meaning the free energy is lowest when the magnetization is in a particular direction. In general, this axis could be in-plane in the x or y direction, or perpendicular to the needle in the z direction. In a graph of energy versus angle of the magnetization from the easy axis, there will be two energy minima: one along the easy axis, and another at 180 degrees (still along the easy axis, just pointed in the opposite direction).



Anyway, I haven't done the calculation, but I don't think the Earth's field is strong enough to cause realignment of the domains. I would also like to mention that once the needle has been magnetized, if you remove the external field, the
needle will keep its magnetization. It would take the addition of a lot of energy to reorient the domains/magnetization that could come from a new external field, or even thermal energy.



For more information, here are some resources:
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain
2) Magnetism and Magnetic Materials by J.M.D. Coey. Sections on Landau Free Energy and maybe even the Stoner-Wohlfarth model would be enlightening.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • I learned some new things from this answer, +1. I've edited my answer to take this info into account and to point to this answer for more details.
    – Ben Crowell
    18 mins ago














2












2








2






For an unmagnetized iron needle to align with an external magnetic field, the field would need to be able to induce a magnetization in the needle. This is definitely possible with a large enough field.



If a naturally ferromagnetic material is unmagnetized, it still contains small magnetic domains inside. However, the sum of the magnetizations of all the domains is zero. If you apply a strong enough external field, the domains will align to the field. The following image is from the Wikipedia page on magnetic domains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain).



Magnetic domain alignment



Then the question is whether the Earth's magnetic field is strong enough to realign the domains in an iron needle. The Landau Free Energy is used to determine this, as the domains will align in whatever way minimizes this energy. Parameters that determine this energy include things like: size and shape of the needle, material (in this case iron), and external field strength.



If the external field is strong enough to cause magnetization, the direction of the induced magnetization will be in a direction that minimizes the anisotropy energy and is pre-determined by the dimensions of the needle. The dimensions give rise to an "easy" axis, meaning the free energy is lowest when the magnetization is in a particular direction. In general, this axis could be in-plane in the x or y direction, or perpendicular to the needle in the z direction. In a graph of energy versus angle of the magnetization from the easy axis, there will be two energy minima: one along the easy axis, and another at 180 degrees (still along the easy axis, just pointed in the opposite direction).



Anyway, I haven't done the calculation, but I don't think the Earth's field is strong enough to cause realignment of the domains. I would also like to mention that once the needle has been magnetized, if you remove the external field, the
needle will keep its magnetization. It would take the addition of a lot of energy to reorient the domains/magnetization that could come from a new external field, or even thermal energy.



For more information, here are some resources:
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain
2) Magnetism and Magnetic Materials by J.M.D. Coey. Sections on Landau Free Energy and maybe even the Stoner-Wohlfarth model would be enlightening.






share|cite|improve this answer














For an unmagnetized iron needle to align with an external magnetic field, the field would need to be able to induce a magnetization in the needle. This is definitely possible with a large enough field.



If a naturally ferromagnetic material is unmagnetized, it still contains small magnetic domains inside. However, the sum of the magnetizations of all the domains is zero. If you apply a strong enough external field, the domains will align to the field. The following image is from the Wikipedia page on magnetic domains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain).



Magnetic domain alignment



Then the question is whether the Earth's magnetic field is strong enough to realign the domains in an iron needle. The Landau Free Energy is used to determine this, as the domains will align in whatever way minimizes this energy. Parameters that determine this energy include things like: size and shape of the needle, material (in this case iron), and external field strength.



If the external field is strong enough to cause magnetization, the direction of the induced magnetization will be in a direction that minimizes the anisotropy energy and is pre-determined by the dimensions of the needle. The dimensions give rise to an "easy" axis, meaning the free energy is lowest when the magnetization is in a particular direction. In general, this axis could be in-plane in the x or y direction, or perpendicular to the needle in the z direction. In a graph of energy versus angle of the magnetization from the easy axis, there will be two energy minima: one along the easy axis, and another at 180 degrees (still along the easy axis, just pointed in the opposite direction).



Anyway, I haven't done the calculation, but I don't think the Earth's field is strong enough to cause realignment of the domains. I would also like to mention that once the needle has been magnetized, if you remove the external field, the
needle will keep its magnetization. It would take the addition of a lot of energy to reorient the domains/magnetization that could come from a new external field, or even thermal energy.



For more information, here are some resources:
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain
2) Magnetism and Magnetic Materials by J.M.D. Coey. Sections on Landau Free Energy and maybe even the Stoner-Wohlfarth model would be enlightening.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited 16 mins ago

























answered 41 mins ago









Physika

716




716












  • I learned some new things from this answer, +1. I've edited my answer to take this info into account and to point to this answer for more details.
    – Ben Crowell
    18 mins ago


















  • I learned some new things from this answer, +1. I've edited my answer to take this info into account and to point to this answer for more details.
    – Ben Crowell
    18 mins ago
















I learned some new things from this answer, +1. I've edited my answer to take this info into account and to point to this answer for more details.
– Ben Crowell
18 mins ago




I learned some new things from this answer, +1. I've edited my answer to take this info into account and to point to this answer for more details.
– Ben Crowell
18 mins ago


















draft saved

draft discarded




















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f451368%2fwould-a-compass-with-unmagnetized-needle-work%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Morgemoulin

Scott Moir

Souastre