Why does Sankr. नक्ति (nákti) not show Satemization
Did Sanskrit नक्ति (nákti) "night", PIE *nókʷts, not participate in the kentum-satem split? Why? Is it a loan? There are at least two synonyms, if that makes any difference.
I have no actual reason to assume it should have undergone Satemization, unless that's what affected अष्ट (aṣṭá) "eight", PIE *oḱtṓw. Is that wrong?
In other words, why did these two roots develop differently?
etymology historical-linguistics proto-indo-european sound-change sanskrit
add a comment |
Did Sanskrit नक्ति (nákti) "night", PIE *nókʷts, not participate in the kentum-satem split? Why? Is it a loan? There are at least two synonyms, if that makes any difference.
I have no actual reason to assume it should have undergone Satemization, unless that's what affected अष्ट (aṣṭá) "eight", PIE *oḱtṓw. Is that wrong?
In other words, why did these two roots develop differently?
etymology historical-linguistics proto-indo-european sound-change sanskrit
add a comment |
Did Sanskrit नक्ति (nákti) "night", PIE *nókʷts, not participate in the kentum-satem split? Why? Is it a loan? There are at least two synonyms, if that makes any difference.
I have no actual reason to assume it should have undergone Satemization, unless that's what affected अष्ट (aṣṭá) "eight", PIE *oḱtṓw. Is that wrong?
In other words, why did these two roots develop differently?
etymology historical-linguistics proto-indo-european sound-change sanskrit
Did Sanskrit नक्ति (nákti) "night", PIE *nókʷts, not participate in the kentum-satem split? Why? Is it a loan? There are at least two synonyms, if that makes any difference.
I have no actual reason to assume it should have undergone Satemization, unless that's what affected अष्ट (aṣṭá) "eight", PIE *oḱtṓw. Is that wrong?
In other words, why did these two roots develop differently?
etymology historical-linguistics proto-indo-european sound-change sanskrit
etymology historical-linguistics proto-indo-european sound-change sanskrit
edited 2 days ago
jknappen
10.7k22752
10.7k22752
asked Dec 19 '18 at 15:34
vectory
1888
1888
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2 Answers
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There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.
As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).
Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
– vectory
Dec 19 '18 at 17:22
1
Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:01
@TKR noted. I changed the example.
– jknappen
2 days ago
add a comment |
As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:
- "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar):
*ḱ
,*ǵ
,*ǵʰ
- "Plain velars" (probably uvular):
*k
,*g
,*gʰ
- "Labial velars" (probably labial-something):
*kʷ
,*gʷ
,*gʷʰ
We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.
In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm
"hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/
. The "labial" series stayed distinct.
In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm
became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).
Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ
, it merged into *k
in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)
EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!
The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:04
@TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:29
@TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
add a comment |
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There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.
As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).
Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
– vectory
Dec 19 '18 at 17:22
1
Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:01
@TKR noted. I changed the example.
– jknappen
2 days ago
add a comment |
There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.
As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).
Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
– vectory
Dec 19 '18 at 17:22
1
Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:01
@TKR noted. I changed the example.
– jknappen
2 days ago
add a comment |
There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.
As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).
There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.
As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).
edited 2 days ago
answered Dec 19 '18 at 16:13
jknappen
10.7k22752
10.7k22752
Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
– vectory
Dec 19 '18 at 17:22
1
Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:01
@TKR noted. I changed the example.
– jknappen
2 days ago
add a comment |
Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
– vectory
Dec 19 '18 at 17:22
1
Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:01
@TKR noted. I changed the example.
– jknappen
2 days ago
Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
– vectory
Dec 19 '18 at 17:22
Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
– vectory
Dec 19 '18 at 17:22
1
1
Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:01
Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:01
@TKR noted. I changed the example.
– jknappen
2 days ago
@TKR noted. I changed the example.
– jknappen
2 days ago
add a comment |
As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:
- "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar):
*ḱ
,*ǵ
,*ǵʰ
- "Plain velars" (probably uvular):
*k
,*g
,*gʰ
- "Labial velars" (probably labial-something):
*kʷ
,*gʷ
,*gʷʰ
We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.
In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm
"hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/
. The "labial" series stayed distinct.
In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm
became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).
Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ
, it merged into *k
in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)
EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!
The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:04
@TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:29
@TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
add a comment |
As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:
- "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar):
*ḱ
,*ǵ
,*ǵʰ
- "Plain velars" (probably uvular):
*k
,*g
,*gʰ
- "Labial velars" (probably labial-something):
*kʷ
,*gʷ
,*gʷʰ
We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.
In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm
"hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/
. The "labial" series stayed distinct.
In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm
became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).
Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ
, it merged into *k
in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)
EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!
The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:04
@TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:29
@TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
add a comment |
As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:
- "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar):
*ḱ
,*ǵ
,*ǵʰ
- "Plain velars" (probably uvular):
*k
,*g
,*gʰ
- "Labial velars" (probably labial-something):
*kʷ
,*gʷ
,*gʷʰ
We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.
In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm
"hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/
. The "labial" series stayed distinct.
In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm
became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).
Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ
, it merged into *k
in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)
EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!
As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:
- "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar):
*ḱ
,*ǵ
,*ǵʰ
- "Plain velars" (probably uvular):
*k
,*g
,*gʰ
- "Labial velars" (probably labial-something):
*kʷ
,*gʷ
,*gʷʰ
We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.
In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm
"hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/
. The "labial" series stayed distinct.
In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm
became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).
Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ
, it merged into *k
in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)
EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!
edited Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
answered Dec 19 '18 at 17:04
Draconis
9,3711339
9,3711339
The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:04
@TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:29
@TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
add a comment |
The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:04
@TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:29
@TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:04
The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
– TKR
Dec 30 '18 at 0:04
@TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:29
@TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:29
@TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
@TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
– Draconis
Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
add a comment |
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