Why does Sankr. नक्ति (nákti) not show Satemization












2














Did Sanskrit नक्ति (nákti) "night", PIE *nókʷts, not participate in the kentum-satem split? Why? Is it a loan? There are at least two synonyms, if that makes any difference.



I have no actual reason to assume it should have undergone Satemization, unless that's what affected अष्ट (aṣṭá) "eight", PIE *oḱtṓw. Is that wrong?



In other words, why did these two roots develop differently?










share|improve this question





























    2














    Did Sanskrit नक्ति (nákti) "night", PIE *nókʷts, not participate in the kentum-satem split? Why? Is it a loan? There are at least two synonyms, if that makes any difference.



    I have no actual reason to assume it should have undergone Satemization, unless that's what affected अष्ट (aṣṭá) "eight", PIE *oḱtṓw. Is that wrong?



    In other words, why did these two roots develop differently?










    share|improve this question



























      2












      2








      2







      Did Sanskrit नक्ति (nákti) "night", PIE *nókʷts, not participate in the kentum-satem split? Why? Is it a loan? There are at least two synonyms, if that makes any difference.



      I have no actual reason to assume it should have undergone Satemization, unless that's what affected अष्ट (aṣṭá) "eight", PIE *oḱtṓw. Is that wrong?



      In other words, why did these two roots develop differently?










      share|improve this question















      Did Sanskrit नक्ति (nákti) "night", PIE *nókʷts, not participate in the kentum-satem split? Why? Is it a loan? There are at least two synonyms, if that makes any difference.



      I have no actual reason to assume it should have undergone Satemization, unless that's what affected अष्ट (aṣṭá) "eight", PIE *oḱtṓw. Is that wrong?



      In other words, why did these two roots develop differently?







      etymology historical-linguistics proto-indo-european sound-change sanskrit






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      share|improve this question




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      edited 2 days ago









      jknappen

      10.7k22752




      10.7k22752










      asked Dec 19 '18 at 15:34









      vectory

      1888




      1888






















          2 Answers
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          6














          There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.



          As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).






          share|improve this answer























          • Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
            – vectory
            Dec 19 '18 at 17:22






          • 1




            Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:01










          • @TKR noted. I changed the example.
            – jknappen
            2 days ago



















          6














          As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:




          • "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar): *ḱ, , *ǵʰ

          • "Plain velars" (probably uvular): *k, *g, *gʰ

          • "Labial velars" (probably labial-something): *kʷ, *gʷ, *gʷʰ


          We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.



          In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm "hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/. The "labial" series stayed distinct.



          In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).



          Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ, it merged into *k in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)



          EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!






          share|improve this answer























          • The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:04










          • @TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:29










          • @TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:30











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          2 Answers
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          2 Answers
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          6














          There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.



          As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).






          share|improve this answer























          • Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
            – vectory
            Dec 19 '18 at 17:22






          • 1




            Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:01










          • @TKR noted. I changed the example.
            – jknappen
            2 days ago
















          6














          There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.



          As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).






          share|improve this answer























          • Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
            – vectory
            Dec 19 '18 at 17:22






          • 1




            Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:01










          • @TKR noted. I changed the example.
            – jknappen
            2 days ago














          6












          6








          6






          There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.



          As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).






          share|improve this answer














          There are three different series of guttural sounds reconstructed for Proto-Indogermanic, that are usually represented by *k' (the k that gets satemised), *k (plain k that stays k), and *kʷ (that has many different developments in the different languages, the outcomes include p (Ancient Greek ποῖος (poîos) from *kʷoyo), kw or kv, or plain k.



          As the reconstructed form shows, *nókʷts has a non-satemising *kʷ. This is consistent with other satem languages: Lithuanian: naktis, Latvian: nakts. Russian: ночь (nočʹ) seems to be inconsistent, but here a series of sound changes has taken place *kt -> *t' -> čʹ with complete elimination of the original k. Note that Spanish noche has undergone similar sound changes independently (and we know the Latin precedent nox, noctis in this case).







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 2 days ago

























          answered Dec 19 '18 at 16:13









          jknappen

          10.7k22752




          10.7k22752












          • Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
            – vectory
            Dec 19 '18 at 17:22






          • 1




            Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:01










          • @TKR noted. I changed the example.
            – jknappen
            2 days ago


















          • Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
            – vectory
            Dec 19 '18 at 17:22






          • 1




            Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:01










          • @TKR noted. I changed the example.
            – jknappen
            2 days ago
















          Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
          – vectory
          Dec 19 '18 at 17:22




          Since both variants merged in Germanic, I was blind to the difference. Thanks for clearing it up with basically the first phrase.
          – vectory
          Dec 19 '18 at 17:22




          1




          1




          Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
          – TKR
          Dec 30 '18 at 0:01




          Small correction, ἵππος is not from *ekʷos but from *eḱwos.
          – TKR
          Dec 30 '18 at 0:01












          @TKR noted. I changed the example.
          – jknappen
          2 days ago




          @TKR noted. I changed the example.
          – jknappen
          2 days ago











          6














          As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:




          • "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar): *ḱ, , *ǵʰ

          • "Plain velars" (probably uvular): *k, *g, *gʰ

          • "Labial velars" (probably labial-something): *kʷ, *gʷ, *gʷʰ


          We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.



          In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm "hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/. The "labial" series stayed distinct.



          In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).



          Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ, it merged into *k in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)



          EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!






          share|improve this answer























          • The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:04










          • @TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:29










          • @TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
















          6














          As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:




          • "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar): *ḱ, , *ǵʰ

          • "Plain velars" (probably uvular): *k, *g, *gʰ

          • "Labial velars" (probably labial-something): *kʷ, *gʷ, *gʷʰ


          We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.



          In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm "hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/. The "labial" series stayed distinct.



          In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).



          Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ, it merged into *k in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)



          EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!






          share|improve this answer























          • The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:04










          • @TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:29










          • @TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:30














          6












          6








          6






          As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:




          • "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar): *ḱ, , *ǵʰ

          • "Plain velars" (probably uvular): *k, *g, *gʰ

          • "Labial velars" (probably labial-something): *kʷ, *gʷ, *gʷʰ


          We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.



          In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm "hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/. The "labial" series stayed distinct.



          In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).



          Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ, it merged into *k in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)



          EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!






          share|improve this answer














          As commonly reconstructed, PIE had three different types of "velar-ish" plosives:




          • "Palatal velars" (probably plain velar): *ḱ, , *ǵʰ

          • "Plain velars" (probably uvular): *k, *g, *gʰ

          • "Labial velars" (probably labial-something): *kʷ, *gʷ, *gʷʰ


          We're not sure exactly how they were pronounced; I believe the distinction was probably velar/uvular/labiovelar rather than palatal/velar/labiovelar, but the terminology has stuck, and there's no hard proof either way.



          In the centum languages, the "palatal" and "plain" series merged together. For the classic example that gave the phenomenon its name, *ḱm̥tóm "hundred" > Latin centum, with a /k/. The "labial" series stayed distinct.



          In the satem languages, the "plain" and "labial" series merged together, and the "palatal" series turned into various sibilants, so *ḱm̥tóm became Avestan satem (and Sanskrit śatam).



          Since this root had a "labial" *kʷ, it merged into *k in the satem languages rather than becoming a sibilant. That's what you see in Sanskrit. (Slavic languages do seem to have satemized it, as jknappen points out, but that's a later development due to the consonant cluster.)



          EDIT TO ADD: As TKR points out, when I say things like "probably uvular", that's very far from certain or uncontroversial. Many linguists think that the sounds were uvular, but many others think they weren't, and there are solid arguments on both sides. Such are the perils of reconstructing!







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Dec 30 '18 at 1:30

























          answered Dec 19 '18 at 17:04









          Draconis

          9,3711339




          9,3711339












          • The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:04










          • @TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:29










          • @TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:30


















          • The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
            – TKR
            Dec 30 '18 at 0:04










          • @TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:29










          • @TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
            – Draconis
            Dec 30 '18 at 1:30
















          The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
          – TKR
          Dec 30 '18 at 0:04




          The uvular theory has its attractions, but it faces the difficulty that you have to reconstruct not only a voiceless uvular stop (fairly common), but a voiced uvular stop (very uncommon) and a voiced aspirated uvular stop (unattested in any known language).
          – TKR
          Dec 30 '18 at 0:04












          @TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
          – Draconis
          Dec 30 '18 at 1:29




          @TKR True; my preferred version of the theory says that the three-way distinction was aspirated, unaspirated, and glottalized (ejective maybe), and a uvular ejective is far more common.
          – Draconis
          Dec 30 '18 at 1:29












          @TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
          – Draconis
          Dec 30 '18 at 1:30




          @TKR Though that is a very good point! Added a note about it.
          – Draconis
          Dec 30 '18 at 1:30


















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