Why are UK MPs targeting the prime minister and not the deal?
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Given that the Prime Minister's activity that has given rise to discontent in her own party, that any EU deal is subject to an imminent meaningful vote, and that no alternative candidate nor markedly better prospects for a deal resolving the NI backstop are obvious (the EU will hardly allow the UK a unilateral right to disengage unless the NI situation is resolved satisfactorily), what are the reasons why an MP would write to the 1922 Committee targeting the PM, rather than simply wait the extra day or two, and vote against her proposed deal?
united-kingdom brexit conservative-party theresa-may
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up vote
9
down vote
favorite
Given that the Prime Minister's activity that has given rise to discontent in her own party, that any EU deal is subject to an imminent meaningful vote, and that no alternative candidate nor markedly better prospects for a deal resolving the NI backstop are obvious (the EU will hardly allow the UK a unilateral right to disengage unless the NI situation is resolved satisfactorily), what are the reasons why an MP would write to the 1922 Committee targeting the PM, rather than simply wait the extra day or two, and vote against her proposed deal?
united-kingdom brexit conservative-party theresa-may
The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
– Valorum
3 hours ago
@Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
– Stilez
1 hour ago
@Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
– Valorum
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
favorite
up vote
9
down vote
favorite
Given that the Prime Minister's activity that has given rise to discontent in her own party, that any EU deal is subject to an imminent meaningful vote, and that no alternative candidate nor markedly better prospects for a deal resolving the NI backstop are obvious (the EU will hardly allow the UK a unilateral right to disengage unless the NI situation is resolved satisfactorily), what are the reasons why an MP would write to the 1922 Committee targeting the PM, rather than simply wait the extra day or two, and vote against her proposed deal?
united-kingdom brexit conservative-party theresa-may
Given that the Prime Minister's activity that has given rise to discontent in her own party, that any EU deal is subject to an imminent meaningful vote, and that no alternative candidate nor markedly better prospects for a deal resolving the NI backstop are obvious (the EU will hardly allow the UK a unilateral right to disengage unless the NI situation is resolved satisfactorily), what are the reasons why an MP would write to the 1922 Committee targeting the PM, rather than simply wait the extra day or two, and vote against her proposed deal?
united-kingdom brexit conservative-party theresa-may
united-kingdom brexit conservative-party theresa-may
edited 6 hours ago
Machavity
14.9k44274
14.9k44274
asked 13 hours ago
Stilez
1,7302515
1,7302515
The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
– Valorum
3 hours ago
@Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
– Stilez
1 hour ago
@Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
– Valorum
1 hour ago
add a comment |
The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
– Valorum
3 hours ago
@Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
– Stilez
1 hour ago
@Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
– Valorum
1 hour ago
The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
– Valorum
3 hours ago
Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
– Valorum
3 hours ago
@Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
– Stilez
1 hour ago
@Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
– Stilez
1 hour ago
@Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
– Valorum
1 hour ago
@Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
– Valorum
1 hour ago
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
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up vote
14
down vote
Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.
- May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.
- Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)
- May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.
3
Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
– Michael Dodd
10 hours ago
It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
– JBentley
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:
the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.
the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)
the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.
The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".
2
A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
– Jontia
11 hours ago
Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
– Ty Hayes
10 hours ago
2
@TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
– pjc50
10 hours ago
I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
– JBentley
1 hour ago
On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
– JBentley
55 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.
Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.
So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.
To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.
Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).
However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.
This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.
Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).
They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.
So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.
Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.
Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.
The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.
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up vote
-3
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Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.
When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
14
down vote
Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.
- May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.
- Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)
- May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.
3
Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
– Michael Dodd
10 hours ago
It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
– JBentley
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
14
down vote
Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.
- May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.
- Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)
- May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.
3
Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
– Michael Dodd
10 hours ago
It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
– JBentley
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
14
down vote
up vote
14
down vote
Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.
- May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.
- Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)
- May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.
Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.
- May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.
- Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)
- May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.
edited 7 hours ago
Michael Dodd
1034
1034
answered 12 hours ago
Machavity
14.9k44274
14.9k44274
3
Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
– Michael Dodd
10 hours ago
It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
– JBentley
1 hour ago
add a comment |
3
Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
– Michael Dodd
10 hours ago
It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
– JBentley
1 hour ago
3
3
Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
– Michael Dodd
10 hours ago
Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
– Michael Dodd
10 hours ago
It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
– JBentley
1 hour ago
It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
– JBentley
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:
the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.
the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)
the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.
The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".
2
A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
– Jontia
11 hours ago
Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
– Ty Hayes
10 hours ago
2
@TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
– pjc50
10 hours ago
I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
– JBentley
1 hour ago
On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
– JBentley
55 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:
the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.
the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)
the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.
The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".
2
A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
– Jontia
11 hours ago
Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
– Ty Hayes
10 hours ago
2
@TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
– pjc50
10 hours ago
I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
– JBentley
1 hour ago
On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
– JBentley
55 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
up vote
11
down vote
The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:
the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.
the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)
the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.
The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".
The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:
the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.
the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)
the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.
The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".
answered 12 hours ago
pjc50
3,9611021
3,9611021
2
A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
– Jontia
11 hours ago
Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
– Ty Hayes
10 hours ago
2
@TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
– pjc50
10 hours ago
I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
– JBentley
1 hour ago
On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
– JBentley
55 mins ago
add a comment |
2
A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
– Jontia
11 hours ago
Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
– Ty Hayes
10 hours ago
2
@TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
– pjc50
10 hours ago
I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
– JBentley
1 hour ago
On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
– JBentley
55 mins ago
2
2
A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
– Jontia
11 hours ago
A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
– Jontia
11 hours ago
Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
– Ty Hayes
10 hours ago
Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
– Ty Hayes
10 hours ago
2
2
@TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
– pjc50
10 hours ago
@TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
– pjc50
10 hours ago
I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
– JBentley
1 hour ago
I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
– JBentley
1 hour ago
On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
– JBentley
55 mins ago
On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
– JBentley
55 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.
Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.
So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.
Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.
So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.
Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.
So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.
May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.
Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.
So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.
answered 9 hours ago
user
6,02721227
6,02721227
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.
To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.
Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.
To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.
Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.
To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.
Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.
No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.
To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.
Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.
answered 6 hours ago
J.G.
397210
397210
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).
However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.
This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.
Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).
They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.
So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.
Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.
Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.
The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).
However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.
This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.
Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).
They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.
So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.
Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.
Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.
The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).
However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.
This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.
Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).
They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.
So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.
Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.
Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.
The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.
Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).
However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.
This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.
Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).
They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.
So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.
Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.
Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.
The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.
answered 6 hours ago
Yakk
45127
45127
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
-3
down vote
Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.
When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.
New contributor
GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
up vote
-3
down vote
Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.
When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.
New contributor
GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
up vote
-3
down vote
up vote
-3
down vote
Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.
When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.
New contributor
GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.
When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.
New contributor
GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 7 hours ago
GeeTee
1
1
New contributor
GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
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The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
– Valorum
3 hours ago
@Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
– Stilez
1 hour ago
@Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
– Valorum
1 hour ago