Why are UK MPs targeting the prime minister and not the deal?











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Given that the Prime Minister's activity that has given rise to discontent in her own party, that any EU deal is subject to an imminent meaningful vote, and that no alternative candidate nor markedly better prospects for a deal resolving the NI backstop are obvious (the EU will hardly allow the UK a unilateral right to disengage unless the NI situation is resolved satisfactorily), what are the reasons why an MP would write to the 1922 Committee targeting the PM, rather than simply wait the extra day or two, and vote against her proposed deal?










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  • The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
    – Thomas
    6 hours ago










  • Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
    – Valorum
    3 hours ago










  • @Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
    – Stilez
    1 hour ago












  • @Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
    – Valorum
    1 hour ago

















up vote
9
down vote

favorite












Given that the Prime Minister's activity that has given rise to discontent in her own party, that any EU deal is subject to an imminent meaningful vote, and that no alternative candidate nor markedly better prospects for a deal resolving the NI backstop are obvious (the EU will hardly allow the UK a unilateral right to disengage unless the NI situation is resolved satisfactorily), what are the reasons why an MP would write to the 1922 Committee targeting the PM, rather than simply wait the extra day or two, and vote against her proposed deal?










share|improve this question
























  • The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
    – Thomas
    6 hours ago










  • Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
    – Valorum
    3 hours ago










  • @Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
    – Stilez
    1 hour ago












  • @Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
    – Valorum
    1 hour ago















up vote
9
down vote

favorite









up vote
9
down vote

favorite











Given that the Prime Minister's activity that has given rise to discontent in her own party, that any EU deal is subject to an imminent meaningful vote, and that no alternative candidate nor markedly better prospects for a deal resolving the NI backstop are obvious (the EU will hardly allow the UK a unilateral right to disengage unless the NI situation is resolved satisfactorily), what are the reasons why an MP would write to the 1922 Committee targeting the PM, rather than simply wait the extra day or two, and vote against her proposed deal?










share|improve this question















Given that the Prime Minister's activity that has given rise to discontent in her own party, that any EU deal is subject to an imminent meaningful vote, and that no alternative candidate nor markedly better prospects for a deal resolving the NI backstop are obvious (the EU will hardly allow the UK a unilateral right to disengage unless the NI situation is resolved satisfactorily), what are the reasons why an MP would write to the 1922 Committee targeting the PM, rather than simply wait the extra day or two, and vote against her proposed deal?







united-kingdom brexit conservative-party theresa-may






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edited 6 hours ago









Machavity

14.9k44274




14.9k44274










asked 13 hours ago









Stilez

1,7302515




1,7302515












  • The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
    – Thomas
    6 hours ago










  • Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
    – Valorum
    3 hours ago










  • @Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
    – Stilez
    1 hour ago












  • @Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
    – Valorum
    1 hour ago




















  • The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
    – Thomas
    6 hours ago










  • Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
    – Valorum
    3 hours ago










  • @Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
    – Stilez
    1 hour ago












  • @Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
    – Valorum
    1 hour ago


















The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
– Thomas
6 hours ago




The PM pulled the vote on the deal, so MPs couldn't target the deal.
– Thomas
6 hours ago












Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
– Valorum
3 hours ago




Because the people who voted have no confidence in her capacity to get an improved deal
– Valorum
3 hours ago












@Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
– Stilez
1 hour ago






@Valorum - has anyone suggested that someone else might be able to get a significantly better deal, starting from where we now are? There seems to be conspicuous silence on that point. Apparently nobody has confidence in anyone's ability to get a significantly better deal as of now, than she herself could...?
– Stilez
1 hour ago














@Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
– Valorum
1 hour ago






@Stilez - I don't see why a competent negotiator wouldn't be able to improve the deal, whether it's Mrs May or someone else. Ultimately the EU wants a deal and is under significant pressure from the French, Germans, Irish, Spanish, etc to make sure that the UK doesn't go for a "no deal" exit (on WTO terms) that would potentially damage their economies. They also don't want Britain off on its own striking big new deals with the US and others that harm their own interests in the UK market.
– Valorum
1 hour ago












6 Answers
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Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.




  1. May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.

  2. Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)

  3. May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.






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  • 3




    Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
    – Michael Dodd
    10 hours ago












  • It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
    – JBentley
    1 hour ago




















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The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:




  • the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.


  • the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)


  • the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.



The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".






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  • 2




    A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
    – Jontia
    11 hours ago












  • Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
    – Ty Hayes
    10 hours ago






  • 2




    @TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
    – pjc50
    10 hours ago










  • I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
    – JBentley
    1 hour ago










  • On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
    – JBentley
    55 mins ago




















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May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.



Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.



So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.






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    No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.



    To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.



    Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.






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      Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).



      However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.



      This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.



      Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).



      They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.



      So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.



      Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.



      Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.



      The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.






      share|improve this answer




























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        -3
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        Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.



        When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.






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          6 Answers
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          6 Answers
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          Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.




          1. May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.

          2. Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)

          3. May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.






          share|improve this answer



















          • 3




            Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
            – Michael Dodd
            10 hours ago












          • It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
            – JBentley
            1 hour ago

















          up vote
          14
          down vote













          Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.




          1. May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.

          2. Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)

          3. May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.






          share|improve this answer



















          • 3




            Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
            – Michael Dodd
            10 hours ago












          • It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
            – JBentley
            1 hour ago















          up vote
          14
          down vote










          up vote
          14
          down vote









          Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.




          1. May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.

          2. Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)

          3. May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.






          share|improve this answer














          Theresa May isn't just being targeted over Brexit, though.




          1. May called snap elections in 2017, in a bid to strengthen her hand. Instead, she lost seats and had to form a minority government propped up by a confidence & supply agreement with the Democratic Unionist Party (where the Tories had outright control before). There's no question she did considerable political damage to herself at this point.

          2. Brexit was always ill-defined during the Cameron era and May was not the chief proponent. Boris Johnson, the most outspoken proponent, refused to run for PM, likely because he knew the Brexit process would be messy (i.e. how the Ireland/Northern Ireland border will work)

          3. May's negotiations over Brexit have not exactly been according to plan. The general idea was to get the UK out from under EU rule but the current deal still leaves some EU power in place. As such, many in May's own party would not vote for it. Since her standing as PM is at stake, May postponed the vote to stave off a no-confidence vote but the political blood is in the water now.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 7 hours ago









          Michael Dodd

          1034




          1034










          answered 12 hours ago









          Machavity

          14.9k44274




          14.9k44274








          • 3




            Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
            – Michael Dodd
            10 hours ago












          • It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
            – JBentley
            1 hour ago
















          • 3




            Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
            – Michael Dodd
            10 hours ago












          • It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
            – JBentley
            1 hour ago










          3




          3




          Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
          – Michael Dodd
          10 hours ago






          Small correction to (1). No formal coallition similar to the 2010-2015 Conservative-Lib Dem Government was formed. Instead Theresa May's post-2017 Government is a minority Conservative Gov which has support from Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party in a confidence & supply arrangement. The two parties do not have a formal plan for this Parliament together, but the DUP is expected to vote in favour of the Government in key votes such as the budget
          – Michael Dodd
          10 hours ago














          It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
          – JBentley
          1 hour ago






          It's not clear how point 2 relates to the question or to your opening sentence. My best guess is that you're saying May is being targeted because she is not pro-Brexit (although that would contradict the opening sentence).
          – JBentley
          1 hour ago












          up vote
          11
          down vote













          The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:




          • the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.


          • the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)


          • the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.



          The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".






          share|improve this answer

















          • 2




            A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
            – Jontia
            11 hours ago












          • Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
            – Ty Hayes
            10 hours ago






          • 2




            @TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
            – pjc50
            10 hours ago










          • I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
            – JBentley
            1 hour ago










          • On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
            – JBentley
            55 mins ago

















          up vote
          11
          down vote













          The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:




          • the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.


          • the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)


          • the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.



          The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".






          share|improve this answer

















          • 2




            A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
            – Jontia
            11 hours ago












          • Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
            – Ty Hayes
            10 hours ago






          • 2




            @TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
            – pjc50
            10 hours ago










          • I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
            – JBentley
            1 hour ago










          • On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
            – JBentley
            55 mins ago















          up vote
          11
          down vote










          up vote
          11
          down vote









          The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:




          • the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.


          • the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)


          • the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.



          The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".






          share|improve this answer












          The PM has played this disastrously and is now under fire from at least three sources of opposition:




          • the so-called "ERG", who believe that her deal is bad because it's not Brexity enough. They claim that a better deal with no backstop or a fake backstop is possible, despite all the evidence to the contrary. However, these people probably put in their letters long ago and there's only about 20 of them.


          • the "moderate" faction, who believe that it might be possible to get a less bad deal by being less Brexity; the "Norway+" option. This also includes actual Remainers, although at this stage there's still no obvious Remain leadership candidate (Soubry? Hardly.)


          • the "basic competence" discontents: the government was found to be in contempt of Parliament last week, which was an almost unprecedented condemnation. The government has also started trying to delay the vote on the deal. Cabinet ministers openly brief against their own government and vice versa. The basic ability of the government to function is in question and even Tories are going to get fed up of this after a while.



          The deal is not necessarily up for immediate voting, I believe that May could delay it indefinitely because she has control of government "programme motions".







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 12 hours ago









          pjc50

          3,9611021




          3,9611021








          • 2




            A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
            – Jontia
            11 hours ago












          • Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
            – Ty Hayes
            10 hours ago






          • 2




            @TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
            – pjc50
            10 hours ago










          • I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
            – JBentley
            1 hour ago










          • On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
            – JBentley
            55 mins ago
















          • 2




            A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
            – Jontia
            11 hours ago












          • Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
            – Ty Hayes
            10 hours ago






          • 2




            @TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
            – pjc50
            10 hours ago










          • I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
            – JBentley
            1 hour ago










          • On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
            – JBentley
            55 mins ago










          2




          2




          A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
          – Jontia
          11 hours ago






          A good answer, though I think you should strike the word "trying" from the 3rd bullet. The Government has delayed the vote on the deal, removing it from the schedule at short notice. There's no trying, it's been booted down the road wasting yet more time. The ERG's membership, while unpublished is estimated at over 50 by Wikipedia based on subscribers to the ERG's pooled services.
          – Jontia
          11 hours ago














          Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
          – Ty Hayes
          10 hours ago




          Why is Soubry hardly an obvious Remain leadership candidate? She may not have enough support to win the leadership, but the party did "elect" a "remainer" last time. I would say Soubry has been posturing publicly enough recently to suggest she might be considering a leadership bid.
          – Ty Hayes
          10 hours ago




          2




          2




          @TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
          – pjc50
          10 hours ago




          @TyHayes as a backbencher I don't believe she has enough popularity with the rest of the party, but anything could happen.
          – pjc50
          10 hours ago












          I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
          – JBentley
          1 hour ago




          I'm not sure that politically May could delay the vote indefinitely. Per Article 50(s), if no deal is in place by 29 March 2019 (which is what would happen if Parliament does not vote on it) then we leave without a deal. For that to happen simply because the vote did not take place (as opposed to a deliberate choice to go for no-deal) would be a political disaster. A potential workaround would be to withdraw the notice and resubmit it (following from the recent ECJ ruling that makes this possible), but I imagine that would also be politically tough if the only reason was a failure to vote.
          – JBentley
          1 hour ago












          On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
          – JBentley
          55 mins ago






          On point 3, whilst I agree this is a reason she is being targeted, I can't agree that it was played disastrously. Parliament was wrong (morally, not legally) and in breach of the convention of separation of powers, when it required the government to release privileged legal advice. Within the judiciary, even a supreme court judge does not have the power to require an advocate to breach client confidentiality. It is pretty outrageous that the legislature disregarded this important principle for political reasons, and the govt. was right to stand their ground (albeit at a high political cost).
          – JBentley
          55 mins ago












          up vote
          3
          down vote













          May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.



          Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.



          So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.






          share|improve this answer

























            up vote
            3
            down vote













            May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.



            Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.



            So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.






            share|improve this answer























              up vote
              3
              down vote










              up vote
              3
              down vote









              May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.



              Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.



              So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.






              share|improve this answer












              May cancelled the vote on her deal and went to see EU leaders with a view to renegotiating it, which was immediately rejected. She can delay the vote until late January, but that leaves little time to do anything else if it is rejected and few people think that there is anything she can do to rescue it.



              Reading some of the letters sent to the 1922 Committee, it seems that most of those MPs are unhappy with May's vision of Brexit and her inability to deliver it. They are concerned that the UK will drift into a bad deal or no deal simply by running out of time, and wish to see someone more to their liking take over.



              So in answer to the question, by the time they get a vote on the deal it may be too late.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 9 hours ago









              user

              6,02721227




              6,02721227






















                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote













                  No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.



                  To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.



                  Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.






                  share|improve this answer

























                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote













                    No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.



                    To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.



                    Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.






                    share|improve this answer























                      up vote
                      3
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      3
                      down vote









                      No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.



                      To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.



                      Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.






                      share|improve this answer












                      No-one in the Commons is unaware that any other PM would face the same Brexit challenges, to much the same outcome; but this is about a more important long-term principle than that.



                      To add to others' points, the issue isn't necessarily the details of May's Brexit deal so much as how she went about getting it. Legislatures guard against executives that deny their power. Since taking office, she has on multiple occasions been forced in a ruling to give Parliament or others more of a say in the process, rather than acceding to the usual separation of powers. Even the countless resignations and dismissals factor into this, as an unstable Cabinet composition concentrates any power seized from the legislature. Her government was recently found in contempt for hiding legal advice from them, because of what it had to say about the deal.



                      Indefinitely postponing a vote she was very likely to lose, by all appearances because it could damage or end her leadership, after she'd tried to avoid allowing that vote in the first place, was probably the last straw for many MPs.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 6 hours ago









                      J.G.

                      397210




                      397210






















                          up vote
                          3
                          down vote













                          Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).



                          However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.



                          This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.



                          Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).



                          They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.



                          So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.



                          Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.



                          Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.



                          The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.






                          share|improve this answer

























                            up vote
                            3
                            down vote













                            Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).



                            However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.



                            This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.



                            Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).



                            They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.



                            So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.



                            Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.



                            Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.



                            The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.






                            share|improve this answer























                              up vote
                              3
                              down vote










                              up vote
                              3
                              down vote









                              Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).



                              However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.



                              This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.



                              Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).



                              They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.



                              So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.



                              Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.



                              Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.



                              The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.






                              share|improve this answer












                              Brexit is a submarine made out of cheese. Nobody sane at all thinks there is a good Brexit deal to be had. (Every proposed "good Brexit deal" uniformly assumes they can dictate terms to the EU; that has not proven to be the case).



                              However, May has been forced (in order to become PM) to pretend there is a good cheese-submarine, and has in fact built a cheese-submarine.



                              This cheese-submarine is shit. Of course it is, it is a submarine made out of cheese. May has to pretend it isn't shit, because it is the result of 2 years of her leadership.



                              Everyone else is free to say "that cheese submarine is shit". And they are right. May has to say "no, it is a good cheese submarine", because it is the best cheese submarine one can expect (which isn't very good).



                              They also say "I can make a better cheese submarine". Which is pretty much a lie; nobody actually thinks they can make a better one. But, it is a lie you really cannot prove to be a lie unless the person making the lie becomes prime minister.



                              So by stating the clearly obvious "that cheese submarine is shit" and the impossible to disprove "I can make a better one", you position yourself (or your faction) to take over the UK government. At that point, well, you sort of won already. You'll probably try to ship a slightly modified cheese submarine, or maybe just let the cheese submarine sink; that is a problem for another day, after your faction is in control.



                              Defeating this particular cheese submarine (voting against the brexit deal) does not directly get you control of the UK. In fact, once you do that, you might be obligated to propose a better cheese submarine solution, and that isn't a winning move.



                              Instead, point out the failures of May's cheese submarine (which are large, obvious and undefendable), and use that to unseat May, then get control yourself. Once you have control, you could even just push forward May's cheese submarine as "the best you can do now that May wasted all that time" or whatever. Or force a hard Brexit, and try to get the country to rally behind you. Or negotiate more time from the EU. Or revoke Brexit, then reinvoke Brexit to get yourself 2 more years of power and cheese-submarine making room.



                              The important part is, nobody actually has a better cheese submarine plan, but many people do want to have power and be in charge.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered 6 hours ago









                              Yakk

                              45127




                              45127






















                                  up vote
                                  -3
                                  down vote













                                  Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.



                                  When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.






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                                    up vote
                                    -3
                                    down vote













                                    Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.



                                    When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.






                                    share|improve this answer








                                    New contributor




                                    GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                    Check out our Code of Conduct.




















                                      up vote
                                      -3
                                      down vote










                                      up vote
                                      -3
                                      down vote









                                      Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.



                                      When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.






                                      share|improve this answer








                                      New contributor




                                      GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                      Because they are politicians and therefore the normal rules of logic do not apply.



                                      When there is an opportunity to kick another politician they oppose they make personal attacks to 'play to the house' of their own supporters rather than actually trying to come to an arrangement through negotiation or debate and progress with running the country.







                                      share|improve this answer








                                      New contributor




                                      GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer






                                      New contributor




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                                      answered 7 hours ago









                                      GeeTee

                                      1




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                                      GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                      GeeTee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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