Why is “ß” not used in Swiss German?
What are some of the historical reasons why the orthographic symbol ß is not used in Swiss Standard German and “ss” is used instead?
orthography written-language germanic-languages german
edited Dec 17 at 14:17
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What are some of the historical reasons why the orthographic symbol ß is not used in Swiss Standard German and “ss” is used instead?
orthography written-language germanic-languages german
edited Dec 17 at 14:17
Community♦
1
asked Dec 16 at 19:13
alecxe
225214
This question has an open bounty worth +50
reputation from alecxe ending in 19 hours.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
1
spellling is arbitrary - typewriters even more so....
– A. ter Meulen
Dec 20 at 18:16
add a comment |
What are some of the historical reasons why the orthographic symbol ß is not used in Swiss Standard German and “ss” is used instead?
orthography written-language germanic-languages german
edited Dec 17 at 14:17
Community♦
1
asked Dec 16 at 19:13
alecxe
225214
What are some of the historical reasons why the orthographic symbol ß is not used in Swiss Standard German and “ss” is used instead?
orthography written-language germanic-languages german
orthography written-language germanic-languages german
edited Dec 17 at 14:17
Community♦
1
asked Dec 16 at 19:13
alecxe
225214
edited Dec 17 at 14:17
Community♦
1
asked Dec 16 at 19:13
alecxe
225214
edited Dec 17 at 14:17
Community♦
1
edited Dec 17 at 14:17
Community♦
1
edited Dec 17 at 14:17
Community♦
1
1
asked Dec 16 at 19:13
alecxe
225214
asked Dec 16 at 19:13
alecxe
225214
asked Dec 16 at 19:13
alecxe
225214
225214
This question has an open bounty worth +50
reputation from alecxe ending in 19 hours.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
This question has an open bounty worth +50
reputation from alecxe ending in 19 hours.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
1
spellling is arbitrary - typewriters even more so....
– A. ter Meulen
Dec 20 at 18:16
add a comment |
1
spellling is arbitrary - typewriters even more so....
– A. ter Meulen
Dec 20 at 18:16
1
1
spellling is arbitrary - typewriters even more so....
– A. ter Meulen
Dec 20 at 18:16
spellling is arbitrary - typewriters even more so....
– A. ter Meulen
Dec 20 at 18:16
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
It is because of the typewriter. A Swiss typewriter needs to support three languages: German, French, and Italian. Therefore on the Swiss typewriter, there was no ß key. It also has only lowercase umlauts ä, ö, and ü. A picture of a Swiss typewriter can be seen here.
The lack of that key has led to a subsequent deprecation of the ß overall.
edited Dec 17 at 0:48
V2Blast
1054
answered Dec 16 at 20:40
jknappen
10.5k22752
10
Related: That's also why Swiss town names don't start with Umlauts and use Oe Ae Ue instead (e.g. Oerlikon).
– Peter
Dec 17 at 8:46
3
@Josef: It does not sound plausible to me that the magic upper limit of the number of types is reached exactly where regional characters come into play. A typewriter from the same epoch e.g. features (roughly) 77 keys: i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/bd/57/…
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 10:52
4
It sounds kind of plausible, but do you have any evidence for this claim?
– henning
Dec 17 at 14:23
12
I hereby claim this: The typewriter has no ß because there's no ß in Swiss. Now, whose claim-without-evidence is more plausible and more true, and why? (don't get me wrong - I am just hopelessly trying to tickle some logic- or evident-based reasoning out of jknappen, which, as my guts tell me, won't happen)
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 14:40
3
@fdb this version (from 1911) includes ß (visible on the M key, and on the typewritten example text).
– jcaron
Dec 17 at 15:11
|
show 10 more comments
The Swiss government has an explanation on p. 18. One contributing factor is typography, namely the rise of use of the Antiqua font, which was claimed to not include ß. I have no evaluation of the truthiness of that claim, for the relevant historical period, i.e. prior to 1901. It is certainly the case that its shape in Antique was not uniform.
The rules for using the letter have been complicated and much of the 1996 German spelling reform was about rules for s. As to why Switzerland was earlier and more radical in eliminating ß, this may be a cultural matter. Pairs like Flosse (fin), Floße (rafts), Buße (penance), Busse (buses) are rare and contextually not likely to lead to confusion.
One predicts that Masse (mass), Maße (dimensions) might still be distinguished with ss/ß.
edited Dec 20 at 13:49
Community♦
1
answered Dec 16 at 20:05
user6726
33.6k12464
3
"more radical in eliminating ß" - this seems to imply the changes of the 1996 spelling reform had the intention of eliminating ß, which is not quite the case.
– O. R. Mapper
Dec 17 at 9:17
12
Though it does give confusion with "Alkohol in Massen", which without the ess-tset to disambiguate can mean either "alcohol in moderation" or "alcohol en masse" ;)
– Muzer
Dec 17 at 10:45
1
@Muzer I think many people would prefer to parse it as "alcohol in 1 liter glass vessels like the ones used at Oktoberfest". You know, motivated reasoning and all that.
– rumtscho
Dec 17 at 14:52
4
@Muzer you know the story of that health&safety campaign: “Alkohol – weniger ist besser!” Well, this wasn't considered strong enought, so they changed it: “Alkohol – nichts ist besser!”
– leftaroundabout
Dec 17 at 22:17
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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It is because of the typewriter. A Swiss typewriter needs to support three languages: German, French, and Italian. Therefore on the Swiss typewriter, there was no ß key. It also has only lowercase umlauts ä, ö, and ü. A picture of a Swiss typewriter can be seen here.
The lack of that key has led to a subsequent deprecation of the ß overall.
edited Dec 17 at 0:48
V2Blast
1054
answered Dec 16 at 20:40
jknappen
10.5k22752
10
Related: That's also why Swiss town names don't start with Umlauts and use Oe Ae Ue instead (e.g. Oerlikon).
– Peter
Dec 17 at 8:46
3
@Josef: It does not sound plausible to me that the magic upper limit of the number of types is reached exactly where regional characters come into play. A typewriter from the same epoch e.g. features (roughly) 77 keys: i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/bd/57/…
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 10:52
4
It sounds kind of plausible, but do you have any evidence for this claim?
– henning
Dec 17 at 14:23
12
I hereby claim this: The typewriter has no ß because there's no ß in Swiss. Now, whose claim-without-evidence is more plausible and more true, and why? (don't get me wrong - I am just hopelessly trying to tickle some logic- or evident-based reasoning out of jknappen, which, as my guts tell me, won't happen)
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 14:40
3
@fdb this version (from 1911) includes ß (visible on the M key, and on the typewritten example text).
– jcaron
Dec 17 at 15:11
|
show 10 more comments
It is because of the typewriter. A Swiss typewriter needs to support three languages: German, French, and Italian. Therefore on the Swiss typewriter, there was no ß key. It also has only lowercase umlauts ä, ö, and ü. A picture of a Swiss typewriter can be seen here.
The lack of that key has led to a subsequent deprecation of the ß overall.
edited Dec 17 at 0:48
V2Blast
1054
answered Dec 16 at 20:40
jknappen
10.5k22752
10
Related: That's also why Swiss town names don't start with Umlauts and use Oe Ae Ue instead (e.g. Oerlikon).
– Peter
Dec 17 at 8:46
3
@Josef: It does not sound plausible to me that the magic upper limit of the number of types is reached exactly where regional characters come into play. A typewriter from the same epoch e.g. features (roughly) 77 keys: i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/bd/57/…
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 10:52
4
It sounds kind of plausible, but do you have any evidence for this claim?
– henning
Dec 17 at 14:23
12
I hereby claim this: The typewriter has no ß because there's no ß in Swiss. Now, whose claim-without-evidence is more plausible and more true, and why? (don't get me wrong - I am just hopelessly trying to tickle some logic- or evident-based reasoning out of jknappen, which, as my guts tell me, won't happen)
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 14:40
3
@fdb this version (from 1911) includes ß (visible on the M key, and on the typewritten example text).
– jcaron
Dec 17 at 15:11
|
show 10 more comments
It is because of the typewriter. A Swiss typewriter needs to support three languages: German, French, and Italian. Therefore on the Swiss typewriter, there was no ß key. It also has only lowercase umlauts ä, ö, and ü. A picture of a Swiss typewriter can be seen here.
The lack of that key has led to a subsequent deprecation of the ß overall.
edited Dec 17 at 0:48
V2Blast
1054
answered Dec 16 at 20:40
jknappen
10.5k22752
It is because of the typewriter. A Swiss typewriter needs to support three languages: German, French, and Italian. Therefore on the Swiss typewriter, there was no ß key. It also has only lowercase umlauts ä, ö, and ü. A picture of a Swiss typewriter can be seen here.
The lack of that key has led to a subsequent deprecation of the ß overall.
edited Dec 17 at 0:48
V2Blast
1054
answered Dec 16 at 20:40
jknappen
10.5k22752
edited Dec 17 at 0:48
V2Blast
1054
edited Dec 17 at 0:48
V2Blast
1054
edited Dec 17 at 0:48
V2Blast
1054
1054
answered Dec 16 at 20:40
jknappen
10.5k22752
answered Dec 16 at 20:40
jknappen
10.5k22752
answered Dec 16 at 20:40
jknappen
10.5k22752
10.5k22752
10
Related: That's also why Swiss town names don't start with Umlauts and use Oe Ae Ue instead (e.g. Oerlikon).
– Peter
Dec 17 at 8:46
3
@Josef: It does not sound plausible to me that the magic upper limit of the number of types is reached exactly where regional characters come into play. A typewriter from the same epoch e.g. features (roughly) 77 keys: i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/bd/57/…
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 10:52
4
It sounds kind of plausible, but do you have any evidence for this claim?
– henning
Dec 17 at 14:23
12
I hereby claim this: The typewriter has no ß because there's no ß in Swiss. Now, whose claim-without-evidence is more plausible and more true, and why? (don't get me wrong - I am just hopelessly trying to tickle some logic- or evident-based reasoning out of jknappen, which, as my guts tell me, won't happen)
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 14:40
3
@fdb this version (from 1911) includes ß (visible on the M key, and on the typewritten example text).
– jcaron
Dec 17 at 15:11
|
show 10 more comments
10
Related: That's also why Swiss town names don't start with Umlauts and use Oe Ae Ue instead (e.g. Oerlikon).
– Peter
Dec 17 at 8:46
3
@Josef: It does not sound plausible to me that the magic upper limit of the number of types is reached exactly where regional characters come into play. A typewriter from the same epoch e.g. features (roughly) 77 keys: i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/bd/57/…
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 10:52
4
It sounds kind of plausible, but do you have any evidence for this claim?
– henning
Dec 17 at 14:23
12
I hereby claim this: The typewriter has no ß because there's no ß in Swiss. Now, whose claim-without-evidence is more plausible and more true, and why? (don't get me wrong - I am just hopelessly trying to tickle some logic- or evident-based reasoning out of jknappen, which, as my guts tell me, won't happen)
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 14:40
3
@fdb this version (from 1911) includes ß (visible on the M key, and on the typewritten example text).
– jcaron
Dec 17 at 15:11
10
10
Related: That's also why Swiss town names don't start with Umlauts and use Oe Ae Ue instead (e.g. Oerlikon).
– Peter
Dec 17 at 8:46
Related: That's also why Swiss town names don't start with Umlauts and use Oe Ae Ue instead (e.g. Oerlikon).
– Peter
Dec 17 at 8:46
3
3
@Josef: It does not sound plausible to me that the magic upper limit of the number of types is reached exactly where regional characters come into play. A typewriter from the same epoch e.g. features (roughly) 77 keys: i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/bd/57/…
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 10:52
@Josef: It does not sound plausible to me that the magic upper limit of the number of types is reached exactly where regional characters come into play. A typewriter from the same epoch e.g. features (roughly) 77 keys: i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/bd/57/…
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 10:52
4
4
It sounds kind of plausible, but do you have any evidence for this claim?
– henning
Dec 17 at 14:23
It sounds kind of plausible, but do you have any evidence for this claim?
– henning
Dec 17 at 14:23
12
12
I hereby claim this: The typewriter has no ß because there's no ß in Swiss. Now, whose claim-without-evidence is more plausible and more true, and why? (don't get me wrong - I am just hopelessly trying to tickle some logic- or evident-based reasoning out of jknappen, which, as my guts tell me, won't happen)
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 14:40
I hereby claim this: The typewriter has no ß because there's no ß in Swiss. Now, whose claim-without-evidence is more plausible and more true, and why? (don't get me wrong - I am just hopelessly trying to tickle some logic- or evident-based reasoning out of jknappen, which, as my guts tell me, won't happen)
– Sebastian Mach
Dec 17 at 14:40
3
3
@fdb this version (from 1911) includes ß (visible on the M key, and on the typewritten example text).
– jcaron
Dec 17 at 15:11
@fdb this version (from 1911) includes ß (visible on the M key, and on the typewritten example text).
– jcaron
Dec 17 at 15:11
|
show 10 more comments
The Swiss government has an explanation on p. 18. One contributing factor is typography, namely the rise of use of the Antiqua font, which was claimed to not include ß. I have no evaluation of the truthiness of that claim, for the relevant historical period, i.e. prior to 1901. It is certainly the case that its shape in Antique was not uniform.
The rules for using the letter have been complicated and much of the 1996 German spelling reform was about rules for s. As to why Switzerland was earlier and more radical in eliminating ß, this may be a cultural matter. Pairs like Flosse (fin), Floße (rafts), Buße (penance), Busse (buses) are rare and contextually not likely to lead to confusion.
One predicts that Masse (mass), Maße (dimensions) might still be distinguished with ss/ß.
edited Dec 20 at 13:49
Community♦
1
answered Dec 16 at 20:05
user6726
33.6k12464
3
"more radical in eliminating ß" - this seems to imply the changes of the 1996 spelling reform had the intention of eliminating ß, which is not quite the case.
– O. R. Mapper
Dec 17 at 9:17
12
Though it does give confusion with "Alkohol in Massen", which without the ess-tset to disambiguate can mean either "alcohol in moderation" or "alcohol en masse" ;)
– Muzer
Dec 17 at 10:45
1
@Muzer I think many people would prefer to parse it as "alcohol in 1 liter glass vessels like the ones used at Oktoberfest". You know, motivated reasoning and all that.
– rumtscho
Dec 17 at 14:52
4
@Muzer you know the story of that health&safety campaign: “Alkohol – weniger ist besser!” Well, this wasn't considered strong enought, so they changed it: “Alkohol – nichts ist besser!”
– leftaroundabout
Dec 17 at 22:17
add a comment |
The Swiss government has an explanation on p. 18. One contributing factor is typography, namely the rise of use of the Antiqua font, which was claimed to not include ß. I have no evaluation of the truthiness of that claim, for the relevant historical period, i.e. prior to 1901. It is certainly the case that its shape in Antique was not uniform.
The rules for using the letter have been complicated and much of the 1996 German spelling reform was about rules for s. As to why Switzerland was earlier and more radical in eliminating ß, this may be a cultural matter. Pairs like Flosse (fin), Floße (rafts), Buße (penance), Busse (buses) are rare and contextually not likely to lead to confusion.
One predicts that Masse (mass), Maße (dimensions) might still be distinguished with ss/ß.
edited Dec 20 at 13:49
Community♦
1
answered Dec 16 at 20:05
user6726
33.6k12464
3
"more radical in eliminating ß" - this seems to imply the changes of the 1996 spelling reform had the intention of eliminating ß, which is not quite the case.
– O. R. Mapper
Dec 17 at 9:17
12
Though it does give confusion with "Alkohol in Massen", which without the ess-tset to disambiguate can mean either "alcohol in moderation" or "alcohol en masse" ;)
– Muzer
Dec 17 at 10:45
1
@Muzer I think many people would prefer to parse it as "alcohol in 1 liter glass vessels like the ones used at Oktoberfest". You know, motivated reasoning and all that.
– rumtscho
Dec 17 at 14:52
4
@Muzer you know the story of that health&safety campaign: “Alkohol – weniger ist besser!” Well, this wasn't considered strong enought, so they changed it: “Alkohol – nichts ist besser!”
– leftaroundabout
Dec 17 at 22:17
add a comment |
The Swiss government has an explanation on p. 18. One contributing factor is typography, namely the rise of use of the Antiqua font, which was claimed to not include ß. I have no evaluation of the truthiness of that claim, for the relevant historical period, i.e. prior to 1901. It is certainly the case that its shape in Antique was not uniform.
The rules for using the letter have been complicated and much of the 1996 German spelling reform was about rules for s. As to why Switzerland was earlier and more radical in eliminating ß, this may be a cultural matter. Pairs like Flosse (fin), Floße (rafts), Buße (penance), Busse (buses) are rare and contextually not likely to lead to confusion.
One predicts that Masse (mass), Maße (dimensions) might still be distinguished with ss/ß.
edited Dec 20 at 13:49
Community♦
1
answered Dec 16 at 20:05
user6726
33.6k12464
The Swiss government has an explanation on p. 18. One contributing factor is typography, namely the rise of use of the Antiqua font, which was claimed to not include ß. I have no evaluation of the truthiness of that claim, for the relevant historical period, i.e. prior to 1901. It is certainly the case that its shape in Antique was not uniform.
The rules for using the letter have been complicated and much of the 1996 German spelling reform was about rules for s. As to why Switzerland was earlier and more radical in eliminating ß, this may be a cultural matter. Pairs like Flosse (fin), Floße (rafts), Buße (penance), Busse (buses) are rare and contextually not likely to lead to confusion.
One predicts that Masse (mass), Maße (dimensions) might still be distinguished with ss/ß.
edited Dec 20 at 13:49
Community♦
1
answered Dec 16 at 20:05
user6726
33.6k12464
edited Dec 20 at 13:49
Community♦
1
edited Dec 20 at 13:49
Community♦
1
edited Dec 20 at 13:49
Community♦
1
1
answered Dec 16 at 20:05
user6726
33.6k12464
answered Dec 16 at 20:05
user6726
33.6k12464
answered Dec 16 at 20:05
user6726
33.6k12464
33.6k12464
3
"more radical in eliminating ß" - this seems to imply the changes of the 1996 spelling reform had the intention of eliminating ß, which is not quite the case.
– O. R. Mapper
Dec 17 at 9:17
12
Though it does give confusion with "Alkohol in Massen", which without the ess-tset to disambiguate can mean either "alcohol in moderation" or "alcohol en masse" ;)
– Muzer
Dec 17 at 10:45
1
@Muzer I think many people would prefer to parse it as "alcohol in 1 liter glass vessels like the ones used at Oktoberfest". You know, motivated reasoning and all that.
– rumtscho
Dec 17 at 14:52
4
@Muzer you know the story of that health&safety campaign: “Alkohol – weniger ist besser!” Well, this wasn't considered strong enought, so they changed it: “Alkohol – nichts ist besser!”
– leftaroundabout
Dec 17 at 22:17
add a comment |
3
"more radical in eliminating ß" - this seems to imply the changes of the 1996 spelling reform had the intention of eliminating ß, which is not quite the case.
– O. R. Mapper
Dec 17 at 9:17
12
Though it does give confusion with "Alkohol in Massen", which without the ess-tset to disambiguate can mean either "alcohol in moderation" or "alcohol en masse" ;)
– Muzer
Dec 17 at 10:45
1
@Muzer I think many people would prefer to parse it as "alcohol in 1 liter glass vessels like the ones used at Oktoberfest". You know, motivated reasoning and all that.
– rumtscho
Dec 17 at 14:52
4
@Muzer you know the story of that health&safety campaign: “Alkohol – weniger ist besser!” Well, this wasn't considered strong enought, so they changed it: “Alkohol – nichts ist besser!”
– leftaroundabout
Dec 17 at 22:17
3
3
"more radical in eliminating ß" - this seems to imply the changes of the 1996 spelling reform had the intention of eliminating ß, which is not quite the case.
– O. R. Mapper
Dec 17 at 9:17
"more radical in eliminating ß" - this seems to imply the changes of the 1996 spelling reform had the intention of eliminating ß, which is not quite the case.
– O. R. Mapper
Dec 17 at 9:17
12
12
Though it does give confusion with "Alkohol in Massen", which without the ess-tset to disambiguate can mean either "alcohol in moderation" or "alcohol en masse" ;)
– Muzer
Dec 17 at 10:45
Though it does give confusion with "Alkohol in Massen", which without the ess-tset to disambiguate can mean either "alcohol in moderation" or "alcohol en masse" ;)
– Muzer
Dec 17 at 10:45
1
1
@Muzer I think many people would prefer to parse it as "alcohol in 1 liter glass vessels like the ones used at Oktoberfest". You know, motivated reasoning and all that.
– rumtscho
Dec 17 at 14:52
@Muzer I think many people would prefer to parse it as "alcohol in 1 liter glass vessels like the ones used at Oktoberfest". You know, motivated reasoning and all that.
– rumtscho
Dec 17 at 14:52
4
4
@Muzer you know the story of that health&safety campaign: “Alkohol – weniger ist besser!” Well, this wasn't considered strong enought, so they changed it: “Alkohol – nichts ist besser!”
– leftaroundabout
Dec 17 at 22:17
@Muzer you know the story of that health&safety campaign: “Alkohol – weniger ist besser!” Well, this wasn't considered strong enought, so they changed it: “Alkohol – nichts ist besser!”
– leftaroundabout
Dec 17 at 22:17
add a comment |
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1
spellling is arbitrary - typewriters even more so....
– A. ter Meulen
Dec 20 at 18:16