Why does the humidifier make a stove's flame orange?
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Just like this guy's, the color of my stove's flames were affected by the humidifier as well.
Why does this happen?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ?
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion
This question has an open bounty worth +300
reputation from niels nielsen ending in 5 days.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
this bounty is intended to reward RUSLAN for performing the experiment as described below.
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up vote
90
down vote
favorite


Just like this guy's, the color of my stove's flames were affected by the humidifier as well.
Why does this happen?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ?
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion
This question has an open bounty worth +300
reputation from niels nielsen ending in 5 days.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
this bounty is intended to reward RUSLAN for performing the experiment as described below.
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
2 days ago
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
yesterday
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
yesterday
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
yesterday
@ToddWilcox same camera doesn't guarantee anything at all. At the very least there must be fixed white balance to get consistent color reproduction, and low enough exposure to avoid blown-out red channel.
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
90
down vote
favorite
up vote
90
down vote
favorite


Just like this guy's, the color of my stove's flames were affected by the humidifier as well.
Why does this happen?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ?
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion


Just like this guy's, the color of my stove's flames were affected by the humidifier as well.
Why does this happen?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ?
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion
edited Nov 18 at 12:36
Chair
3,37472033
3,37472033
asked Nov 18 at 1:46
Ilya Gazman
56349
56349
This question has an open bounty worth +300
reputation from niels nielsen ending in 5 days.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
this bounty is intended to reward RUSLAN for performing the experiment as described below.
This question has an open bounty worth +300
reputation from niels nielsen ending in 5 days.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
this bounty is intended to reward RUSLAN for performing the experiment as described below.
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
2 days ago
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
yesterday
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
yesterday
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
yesterday
@ToddWilcox same camera doesn't guarantee anything at all. At the very least there must be fixed white balance to get consistent color reproduction, and low enough exposure to avoid blown-out red channel.
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
2 days ago
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
yesterday
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
yesterday
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
yesterday
@ToddWilcox same camera doesn't guarantee anything at all. At the very least there must be fixed white balance to get consistent color reproduction, and low enough exposure to avoid blown-out red channel.
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
2 days ago
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
2 days ago
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
yesterday
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
yesterday
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
yesterday
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
yesterday
1
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
yesterday
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
yesterday
@ToddWilcox same camera doesn't guarantee anything at all. At the very least there must be fixed white balance to get consistent color reproduction, and low enough exposure to avoid blown-out red channel.
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
@ToddWilcox same camera doesn't guarantee anything at all. At the very least there must be fixed white balance to get consistent color reproduction, and low enough exposure to avoid blown-out red channel.
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
|
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
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up vote
59
down vote
accepted
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
10
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:18
18
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
Nov 18 at 12:30
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 13:51
16
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
Nov 18 at 23:10
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
Nov 19 at 0:36
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up vote
55
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OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)

From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
(Click the image for a larger version.)

What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
21
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
2 days ago
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
yesterday
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
My take on this experiment is that it isn’t using the same humidifier and conditions of the original question and it doesn’t exclude the possibility that an orange flame caused by something other than sodium in the water could have the same emission spectrum. Basically, it doesn’t reproduce the original conditions accurately enough to be conclusive, in my humble opinion.
– Todd Wilcox
10 hours ago
4
@ToddWilcox It could certainly be improved, but this experiment clearly demonstrates that it is possible to induce sodium line emission in a gas flame to the extent that it appears orange by spraying the air with tap water. That goes a far way to settling the question in my book. Are you saying that something else than sodium might have caused the emission line that just happens to be at the right wavelength for sodium? Well, it certainly isn't black-body radiation from soot, and until someone comes up with a more plausible explanation, I think it's fair to assume that it's sodium.
– jkej
10 hours ago
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up vote
41
down vote
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
14
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
Nov 18 at 10:53
5
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:17
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
Nov 18 at 19:01
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
2 days ago
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
2 days ago
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up vote
12
down vote
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:


Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:


As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
14
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 14:53
10
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
2 days ago
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
2 days ago
7
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
2 days ago
6
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
yesterday
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up vote
3
down vote
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
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up vote
-1
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The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
17
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
Nov 18 at 12:24
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
Nov 18 at 16:45
13
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
7
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
2 days ago
5
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
2 days ago
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6 Answers
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
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active
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active
oldest
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up vote
59
down vote
accepted
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
10
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:18
18
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
Nov 18 at 12:30
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 13:51
16
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
Nov 18 at 23:10
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
Nov 19 at 0:36
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
59
down vote
accepted
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
10
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:18
18
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
Nov 18 at 12:30
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 13:51
16
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
Nov 18 at 23:10
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
Nov 19 at 0:36
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
59
down vote
accepted
up vote
59
down vote
accepted
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
edited 2 days ago
answered Nov 18 at 2:25
niels nielsen
13.2k42242
13.2k42242
10
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:18
18
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
Nov 18 at 12:30
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 13:51
16
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
Nov 18 at 23:10
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
Nov 19 at 0:36
|
show 12 more comments
10
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:18
18
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
Nov 18 at 12:30
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 13:51
16
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
Nov 18 at 23:10
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
Nov 19 at 0:36
10
10
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:18
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:18
18
18
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
Nov 18 at 12:30
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
Nov 18 at 12:30
4
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 13:51
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 13:51
16
16
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
Nov 18 at 23:10
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
Nov 18 at 23:10
11
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
Nov 19 at 0:36
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
Nov 19 at 0:36
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
55
down vote
OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)

From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
(Click the image for a larger version.)

What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
21
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
2 days ago
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
yesterday
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
My take on this experiment is that it isn’t using the same humidifier and conditions of the original question and it doesn’t exclude the possibility that an orange flame caused by something other than sodium in the water could have the same emission spectrum. Basically, it doesn’t reproduce the original conditions accurately enough to be conclusive, in my humble opinion.
– Todd Wilcox
10 hours ago
4
@ToddWilcox It could certainly be improved, but this experiment clearly demonstrates that it is possible to induce sodium line emission in a gas flame to the extent that it appears orange by spraying the air with tap water. That goes a far way to settling the question in my book. Are you saying that something else than sodium might have caused the emission line that just happens to be at the right wavelength for sodium? Well, it certainly isn't black-body radiation from soot, and until someone comes up with a more plausible explanation, I think it's fair to assume that it's sodium.
– jkej
10 hours ago
|
show 24 more comments
up vote
55
down vote
OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)

From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
(Click the image for a larger version.)

What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
21
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
2 days ago
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
yesterday
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
My take on this experiment is that it isn’t using the same humidifier and conditions of the original question and it doesn’t exclude the possibility that an orange flame caused by something other than sodium in the water could have the same emission spectrum. Basically, it doesn’t reproduce the original conditions accurately enough to be conclusive, in my humble opinion.
– Todd Wilcox
10 hours ago
4
@ToddWilcox It could certainly be improved, but this experiment clearly demonstrates that it is possible to induce sodium line emission in a gas flame to the extent that it appears orange by spraying the air with tap water. That goes a far way to settling the question in my book. Are you saying that something else than sodium might have caused the emission line that just happens to be at the right wavelength for sodium? Well, it certainly isn't black-body radiation from soot, and until someone comes up with a more plausible explanation, I think it's fair to assume that it's sodium.
– jkej
10 hours ago
|
show 24 more comments
up vote
55
down vote
up vote
55
down vote
OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)

From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
(Click the image for a larger version.)

What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)

From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
(Click the image for a larger version.)

What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 2 days ago
Ruslan
7,62342864
7,62342864
21
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
2 days ago
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
yesterday
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
My take on this experiment is that it isn’t using the same humidifier and conditions of the original question and it doesn’t exclude the possibility that an orange flame caused by something other than sodium in the water could have the same emission spectrum. Basically, it doesn’t reproduce the original conditions accurately enough to be conclusive, in my humble opinion.
– Todd Wilcox
10 hours ago
4
@ToddWilcox It could certainly be improved, but this experiment clearly demonstrates that it is possible to induce sodium line emission in a gas flame to the extent that it appears orange by spraying the air with tap water. That goes a far way to settling the question in my book. Are you saying that something else than sodium might have caused the emission line that just happens to be at the right wavelength for sodium? Well, it certainly isn't black-body radiation from soot, and until someone comes up with a more plausible explanation, I think it's fair to assume that it's sodium.
– jkej
10 hours ago
|
show 24 more comments
21
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
2 days ago
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
yesterday
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
My take on this experiment is that it isn’t using the same humidifier and conditions of the original question and it doesn’t exclude the possibility that an orange flame caused by something other than sodium in the water could have the same emission spectrum. Basically, it doesn’t reproduce the original conditions accurately enough to be conclusive, in my humble opinion.
– Todd Wilcox
10 hours ago
4
@ToddWilcox It could certainly be improved, but this experiment clearly demonstrates that it is possible to induce sodium line emission in a gas flame to the extent that it appears orange by spraying the air with tap water. That goes a far way to settling the question in my book. Are you saying that something else than sodium might have caused the emission line that just happens to be at the right wavelength for sodium? Well, it certainly isn't black-body radiation from soot, and until someone comes up with a more plausible explanation, I think it's fair to assume that it's sodium.
– jkej
10 hours ago
21
21
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
2 days ago
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
2 days ago
2
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
yesterday
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
yesterday
3
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
yesterday
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
2
My take on this experiment is that it isn’t using the same humidifier and conditions of the original question and it doesn’t exclude the possibility that an orange flame caused by something other than sodium in the water could have the same emission spectrum. Basically, it doesn’t reproduce the original conditions accurately enough to be conclusive, in my humble opinion.
– Todd Wilcox
10 hours ago
My take on this experiment is that it isn’t using the same humidifier and conditions of the original question and it doesn’t exclude the possibility that an orange flame caused by something other than sodium in the water could have the same emission spectrum. Basically, it doesn’t reproduce the original conditions accurately enough to be conclusive, in my humble opinion.
– Todd Wilcox
10 hours ago
4
4
@ToddWilcox It could certainly be improved, but this experiment clearly demonstrates that it is possible to induce sodium line emission in a gas flame to the extent that it appears orange by spraying the air with tap water. That goes a far way to settling the question in my book. Are you saying that something else than sodium might have caused the emission line that just happens to be at the right wavelength for sodium? Well, it certainly isn't black-body radiation from soot, and until someone comes up with a more plausible explanation, I think it's fair to assume that it's sodium.
– jkej
10 hours ago
@ToddWilcox It could certainly be improved, but this experiment clearly demonstrates that it is possible to induce sodium line emission in a gas flame to the extent that it appears orange by spraying the air with tap water. That goes a far way to settling the question in my book. Are you saying that something else than sodium might have caused the emission line that just happens to be at the right wavelength for sodium? Well, it certainly isn't black-body radiation from soot, and until someone comes up with a more plausible explanation, I think it's fair to assume that it's sodium.
– jkej
10 hours ago
|
show 24 more comments
up vote
41
down vote
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
14
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
Nov 18 at 10:53
5
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:17
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
Nov 18 at 19:01
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
2 days ago
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
41
down vote
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
14
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
Nov 18 at 10:53
5
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:17
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
Nov 18 at 19:01
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
2 days ago
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
41
down vote
up vote
41
down vote
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
answered Nov 18 at 6:51
StessenJ
1,366134
1,366134
14
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
Nov 18 at 10:53
5
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:17
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
Nov 18 at 19:01
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
2 days ago
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
14
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
Nov 18 at 10:53
5
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:17
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
Nov 18 at 19:01
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
2 days ago
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
2 days ago
14
14
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
Nov 18 at 10:53
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
Nov 18 at 10:53
5
5
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:17
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
Nov 18 at 12:17
3
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
Nov 18 at 19:01
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
Nov 18 at 19:01
4
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
2 days ago
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
2 days ago
1
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
2 days ago
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
12
down vote
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:


Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:


As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
14
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 14:53
10
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
2 days ago
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
2 days ago
7
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
2 days ago
6
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
up vote
12
down vote
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:


Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:


As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
14
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 14:53
10
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
2 days ago
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
2 days ago
7
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
2 days ago
6
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
up vote
12
down vote
up vote
12
down vote
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:


Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:


As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:


Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:


As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
answered Nov 18 at 14:12
Maury Markowitz
2,853522
2,853522
14
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 14:53
10
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
2 days ago
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
2 days ago
7
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
2 days ago
6
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
14
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 14:53
10
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
2 days ago
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
2 days ago
7
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
2 days ago
6
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
yesterday
14
14
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 14:53
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
Nov 18 at 14:53
10
10
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
2 days ago
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
2 days ago
5
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
2 days ago
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
2 days ago
7
7
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
2 days ago
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
2 days ago
6
6
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
yesterday
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
New contributor
Robert DiGiovanni is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
New contributor
Robert DiGiovanni is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
New contributor
Robert DiGiovanni is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
New contributor
Robert DiGiovanni is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Robert DiGiovanni is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered Nov 18 at 14:06
Robert DiGiovanni
311
311
New contributor
Robert DiGiovanni is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Robert DiGiovanni is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Robert DiGiovanni is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
17
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
Nov 18 at 12:24
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
Nov 18 at 16:45
13
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
7
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
2 days ago
5
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
2 days ago
|
show 8 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
17
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
Nov 18 at 12:24
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
Nov 18 at 16:45
13
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
7
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
2 days ago
5
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
2 days ago
|
show 8 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
answered Nov 18 at 10:30
Douglas Held
21716
21716
17
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
Nov 18 at 12:24
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
Nov 18 at 16:45
13
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
7
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
2 days ago
5
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
2 days ago
|
show 8 more comments
17
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
Nov 18 at 12:24
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
Nov 18 at 16:45
13
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
7
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
2 days ago
5
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
2 days ago
17
17
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
Nov 18 at 12:24
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
Nov 18 at 12:24
3
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
Nov 18 at 16:45
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
Nov 18 at 16:45
13
13
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
7
7
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
2 days ago
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
2 days ago
5
5
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
2 days ago
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
2 days ago
|
show 8 more comments
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2 days ago
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
yesterday
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
yesterday
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
yesterday
@ToddWilcox same camera doesn't guarantee anything at all. At the very least there must be fixed white balance to get consistent color reproduction, and low enough exposure to avoid blown-out red channel.
– Ruslan
12 hours ago