Does the Abjuration wizard's Improved Abjuration feature apply when casting sufficiently high-level spells...











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Inspired by this question on how to improve the chances of casting spells from scrolls.



Improved Abjuration, the School of Abjuration wizard's 10th-level feature, states (PHB, 115):




Beginning at 10th level, when you cast an abjuration spell that requires you to make an ability check as a part of casting that spell (as in counterspell and dispel magic), you add your proficiency bonus to that ability check.




The description for the spell scroll magic item states:




If the spell is on your class’s spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully.




If a 10th-level Wizard (who can cast up to 5th-level spells) finds a spell scroll for an abjuration spell of 6th level or higher (such as globe of invulnerability) and attempts to cast it, they will need to make an ability check.



Does the wizard get to apply their proficiency bonus to that check thanks to the Improved Abjuration feature?










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    up vote
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    Inspired by this question on how to improve the chances of casting spells from scrolls.



    Improved Abjuration, the School of Abjuration wizard's 10th-level feature, states (PHB, 115):




    Beginning at 10th level, when you cast an abjuration spell that requires you to make an ability check as a part of casting that spell (as in counterspell and dispel magic), you add your proficiency bonus to that ability check.




    The description for the spell scroll magic item states:




    If the spell is on your class’s spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully.




    If a 10th-level Wizard (who can cast up to 5th-level spells) finds a spell scroll for an abjuration spell of 6th level or higher (such as globe of invulnerability) and attempts to cast it, they will need to make an ability check.



    Does the wizard get to apply their proficiency bonus to that check thanks to the Improved Abjuration feature?










    share|improve this question


























      up vote
      9
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      9
      down vote

      favorite











      Inspired by this question on how to improve the chances of casting spells from scrolls.



      Improved Abjuration, the School of Abjuration wizard's 10th-level feature, states (PHB, 115):




      Beginning at 10th level, when you cast an abjuration spell that requires you to make an ability check as a part of casting that spell (as in counterspell and dispel magic), you add your proficiency bonus to that ability check.




      The description for the spell scroll magic item states:




      If the spell is on your class’s spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully.




      If a 10th-level Wizard (who can cast up to 5th-level spells) finds a spell scroll for an abjuration spell of 6th level or higher (such as globe of invulnerability) and attempts to cast it, they will need to make an ability check.



      Does the wizard get to apply their proficiency bonus to that check thanks to the Improved Abjuration feature?










      share|improve this question















      Inspired by this question on how to improve the chances of casting spells from scrolls.



      Improved Abjuration, the School of Abjuration wizard's 10th-level feature, states (PHB, 115):




      Beginning at 10th level, when you cast an abjuration spell that requires you to make an ability check as a part of casting that spell (as in counterspell and dispel magic), you add your proficiency bonus to that ability check.




      The description for the spell scroll magic item states:




      If the spell is on your class’s spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully.




      If a 10th-level Wizard (who can cast up to 5th-level spells) finds a spell scroll for an abjuration spell of 6th level or higher (such as globe of invulnerability) and attempts to cast it, they will need to make an ability check.



      Does the wizard get to apply their proficiency bonus to that check thanks to the Improved Abjuration feature?







      dnd-5e spells magic-items class-feature wizard






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      edited 5 hours ago









      V2Blast

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          No, because it's not part of casting the spell



          The trick is in the phrase




          part of casting that spell




          Because you need to roll a check to see if you can even cast it at all (determine whether you cast it successfully), the check is not part of the actual casting of the spell (i.e. the spell says make an ability check somewhere in its description), and, RAW, therefore will not get a bonus from Improved abjuration.






          share|improve this answer










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          Jesse de Bruijne is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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          • Interesting observation. Could you clarify why the scroll check is not part of casting the spell? The quote in the OP seems read as though the check is part of the casting to see if it is successfully done or not.
            – Grosscol
            yesterday








          • 4




            It is a fine distinction that I hadn't noticed, but I agree with Jesse that there is a difference between making a check to see if you successfully cast a spell at all and making a check as an intrinsic part of the spell itself (i.e. the spell description says "make a check" somewhere within it). Though allowing this for abjuration spell scrolls probably wouldn't be too unbalancing.
            – PJRZ
            yesterday








          • 2




            I think the phrase "spell that requires you to make an ability check" further supports your answer, since it implies that the check must be required by the spell itself and not the circumstances of its casting. You could also point out that if you had to make a concentration check to cast a spell under adverse conditions, you wouldn't get to add your proficiency bonus to that check either, because it's not the spell itself that requires the check. (However, I agree with @PJRZ that allowing it anyway is both reasonable and appropriate for the flavor of the ability.)
            – Ryan Thompson
            yesterday












          • I have edited in that this distinction is RAW, because I do read the rules as such, though I can see why stating otherwise would be fair and balanced, and more flavory ;-)
            – Jesse de Bruijne
            22 hours ago


















          up vote
          2
          down vote













          Yes, 5e reads as plain English



          There is no reasonable English language reading that a check "to determine if you cast [the spell] successfully" is not a "[...] check as part of casting the spell".



          Barring rules stating otherwise, 5e reads as plain English.





          Balance wise, this is not going to be hugely significant; it will at most double the utility of "too high" level scrolls, and scrolls are either pure GP or handed out by DM fiat.



          Sense wise, you are a master Abjurer, being able to cast Abjuration spells from spell scrolls more reliably is reasonable.



          Rule of Cool wise, if a player character has an ability, you should default to interpreting it generously unless there is a reason not to.





          A DM could rule otherwise. For example, they could claim that the spell isn't requiring the ability check, but the spell scroll is. That kind of hair-splitting is a reasonable justification when there is any of Sense, Balance or even Rule of Cool reasons to say no.






          share|improve this answer





















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            No, because it's not part of casting the spell



            The trick is in the phrase




            part of casting that spell




            Because you need to roll a check to see if you can even cast it at all (determine whether you cast it successfully), the check is not part of the actual casting of the spell (i.e. the spell says make an ability check somewhere in its description), and, RAW, therefore will not get a bonus from Improved abjuration.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Jesse de Bruijne is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.


















            • Interesting observation. Could you clarify why the scroll check is not part of casting the spell? The quote in the OP seems read as though the check is part of the casting to see if it is successfully done or not.
              – Grosscol
              yesterday








            • 4




              It is a fine distinction that I hadn't noticed, but I agree with Jesse that there is a difference between making a check to see if you successfully cast a spell at all and making a check as an intrinsic part of the spell itself (i.e. the spell description says "make a check" somewhere within it). Though allowing this for abjuration spell scrolls probably wouldn't be too unbalancing.
              – PJRZ
              yesterday








            • 2




              I think the phrase "spell that requires you to make an ability check" further supports your answer, since it implies that the check must be required by the spell itself and not the circumstances of its casting. You could also point out that if you had to make a concentration check to cast a spell under adverse conditions, you wouldn't get to add your proficiency bonus to that check either, because it's not the spell itself that requires the check. (However, I agree with @PJRZ that allowing it anyway is both reasonable and appropriate for the flavor of the ability.)
              – Ryan Thompson
              yesterday












            • I have edited in that this distinction is RAW, because I do read the rules as such, though I can see why stating otherwise would be fair and balanced, and more flavory ;-)
              – Jesse de Bruijne
              22 hours ago















            up vote
            14
            down vote













            No, because it's not part of casting the spell



            The trick is in the phrase




            part of casting that spell




            Because you need to roll a check to see if you can even cast it at all (determine whether you cast it successfully), the check is not part of the actual casting of the spell (i.e. the spell says make an ability check somewhere in its description), and, RAW, therefore will not get a bonus from Improved abjuration.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Jesse de Bruijne is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.


















            • Interesting observation. Could you clarify why the scroll check is not part of casting the spell? The quote in the OP seems read as though the check is part of the casting to see if it is successfully done or not.
              – Grosscol
              yesterday








            • 4




              It is a fine distinction that I hadn't noticed, but I agree with Jesse that there is a difference between making a check to see if you successfully cast a spell at all and making a check as an intrinsic part of the spell itself (i.e. the spell description says "make a check" somewhere within it). Though allowing this for abjuration spell scrolls probably wouldn't be too unbalancing.
              – PJRZ
              yesterday








            • 2




              I think the phrase "spell that requires you to make an ability check" further supports your answer, since it implies that the check must be required by the spell itself and not the circumstances of its casting. You could also point out that if you had to make a concentration check to cast a spell under adverse conditions, you wouldn't get to add your proficiency bonus to that check either, because it's not the spell itself that requires the check. (However, I agree with @PJRZ that allowing it anyway is both reasonable and appropriate for the flavor of the ability.)
              – Ryan Thompson
              yesterday












            • I have edited in that this distinction is RAW, because I do read the rules as such, though I can see why stating otherwise would be fair and balanced, and more flavory ;-)
              – Jesse de Bruijne
              22 hours ago













            up vote
            14
            down vote










            up vote
            14
            down vote









            No, because it's not part of casting the spell



            The trick is in the phrase




            part of casting that spell




            Because you need to roll a check to see if you can even cast it at all (determine whether you cast it successfully), the check is not part of the actual casting of the spell (i.e. the spell says make an ability check somewhere in its description), and, RAW, therefore will not get a bonus from Improved abjuration.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Jesse de Bruijne is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            No, because it's not part of casting the spell



            The trick is in the phrase




            part of casting that spell




            Because you need to roll a check to see if you can even cast it at all (determine whether you cast it successfully), the check is not part of the actual casting of the spell (i.e. the spell says make an ability check somewhere in its description), and, RAW, therefore will not get a bonus from Improved abjuration.







            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            Jesse de Bruijne is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 23 hours ago





















            New contributor




            Jesse de Bruijne is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            answered yesterday









            Jesse de Bruijne

            626311




            626311




            New contributor




            Jesse de Bruijne is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





            New contributor





            Jesse de Bruijne is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            Jesse de Bruijne is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.












            • Interesting observation. Could you clarify why the scroll check is not part of casting the spell? The quote in the OP seems read as though the check is part of the casting to see if it is successfully done or not.
              – Grosscol
              yesterday








            • 4




              It is a fine distinction that I hadn't noticed, but I agree with Jesse that there is a difference between making a check to see if you successfully cast a spell at all and making a check as an intrinsic part of the spell itself (i.e. the spell description says "make a check" somewhere within it). Though allowing this for abjuration spell scrolls probably wouldn't be too unbalancing.
              – PJRZ
              yesterday








            • 2




              I think the phrase "spell that requires you to make an ability check" further supports your answer, since it implies that the check must be required by the spell itself and not the circumstances of its casting. You could also point out that if you had to make a concentration check to cast a spell under adverse conditions, you wouldn't get to add your proficiency bonus to that check either, because it's not the spell itself that requires the check. (However, I agree with @PJRZ that allowing it anyway is both reasonable and appropriate for the flavor of the ability.)
              – Ryan Thompson
              yesterday












            • I have edited in that this distinction is RAW, because I do read the rules as such, though I can see why stating otherwise would be fair and balanced, and more flavory ;-)
              – Jesse de Bruijne
              22 hours ago


















            • Interesting observation. Could you clarify why the scroll check is not part of casting the spell? The quote in the OP seems read as though the check is part of the casting to see if it is successfully done or not.
              – Grosscol
              yesterday








            • 4




              It is a fine distinction that I hadn't noticed, but I agree with Jesse that there is a difference between making a check to see if you successfully cast a spell at all and making a check as an intrinsic part of the spell itself (i.e. the spell description says "make a check" somewhere within it). Though allowing this for abjuration spell scrolls probably wouldn't be too unbalancing.
              – PJRZ
              yesterday








            • 2




              I think the phrase "spell that requires you to make an ability check" further supports your answer, since it implies that the check must be required by the spell itself and not the circumstances of its casting. You could also point out that if you had to make a concentration check to cast a spell under adverse conditions, you wouldn't get to add your proficiency bonus to that check either, because it's not the spell itself that requires the check. (However, I agree with @PJRZ that allowing it anyway is both reasonable and appropriate for the flavor of the ability.)
              – Ryan Thompson
              yesterday












            • I have edited in that this distinction is RAW, because I do read the rules as such, though I can see why stating otherwise would be fair and balanced, and more flavory ;-)
              – Jesse de Bruijne
              22 hours ago
















            Interesting observation. Could you clarify why the scroll check is not part of casting the spell? The quote in the OP seems read as though the check is part of the casting to see if it is successfully done or not.
            – Grosscol
            yesterday






            Interesting observation. Could you clarify why the scroll check is not part of casting the spell? The quote in the OP seems read as though the check is part of the casting to see if it is successfully done or not.
            – Grosscol
            yesterday






            4




            4




            It is a fine distinction that I hadn't noticed, but I agree with Jesse that there is a difference between making a check to see if you successfully cast a spell at all and making a check as an intrinsic part of the spell itself (i.e. the spell description says "make a check" somewhere within it). Though allowing this for abjuration spell scrolls probably wouldn't be too unbalancing.
            – PJRZ
            yesterday






            It is a fine distinction that I hadn't noticed, but I agree with Jesse that there is a difference between making a check to see if you successfully cast a spell at all and making a check as an intrinsic part of the spell itself (i.e. the spell description says "make a check" somewhere within it). Though allowing this for abjuration spell scrolls probably wouldn't be too unbalancing.
            – PJRZ
            yesterday






            2




            2




            I think the phrase "spell that requires you to make an ability check" further supports your answer, since it implies that the check must be required by the spell itself and not the circumstances of its casting. You could also point out that if you had to make a concentration check to cast a spell under adverse conditions, you wouldn't get to add your proficiency bonus to that check either, because it's not the spell itself that requires the check. (However, I agree with @PJRZ that allowing it anyway is both reasonable and appropriate for the flavor of the ability.)
            – Ryan Thompson
            yesterday






            I think the phrase "spell that requires you to make an ability check" further supports your answer, since it implies that the check must be required by the spell itself and not the circumstances of its casting. You could also point out that if you had to make a concentration check to cast a spell under adverse conditions, you wouldn't get to add your proficiency bonus to that check either, because it's not the spell itself that requires the check. (However, I agree with @PJRZ that allowing it anyway is both reasonable and appropriate for the flavor of the ability.)
            – Ryan Thompson
            yesterday














            I have edited in that this distinction is RAW, because I do read the rules as such, though I can see why stating otherwise would be fair and balanced, and more flavory ;-)
            – Jesse de Bruijne
            22 hours ago




            I have edited in that this distinction is RAW, because I do read the rules as such, though I can see why stating otherwise would be fair and balanced, and more flavory ;-)
            – Jesse de Bruijne
            22 hours ago












            up vote
            2
            down vote













            Yes, 5e reads as plain English



            There is no reasonable English language reading that a check "to determine if you cast [the spell] successfully" is not a "[...] check as part of casting the spell".



            Barring rules stating otherwise, 5e reads as plain English.





            Balance wise, this is not going to be hugely significant; it will at most double the utility of "too high" level scrolls, and scrolls are either pure GP or handed out by DM fiat.



            Sense wise, you are a master Abjurer, being able to cast Abjuration spells from spell scrolls more reliably is reasonable.



            Rule of Cool wise, if a player character has an ability, you should default to interpreting it generously unless there is a reason not to.





            A DM could rule otherwise. For example, they could claim that the spell isn't requiring the ability check, but the spell scroll is. That kind of hair-splitting is a reasonable justification when there is any of Sense, Balance or even Rule of Cool reasons to say no.






            share|improve this answer

























              up vote
              2
              down vote













              Yes, 5e reads as plain English



              There is no reasonable English language reading that a check "to determine if you cast [the spell] successfully" is not a "[...] check as part of casting the spell".



              Barring rules stating otherwise, 5e reads as plain English.





              Balance wise, this is not going to be hugely significant; it will at most double the utility of "too high" level scrolls, and scrolls are either pure GP or handed out by DM fiat.



              Sense wise, you are a master Abjurer, being able to cast Abjuration spells from spell scrolls more reliably is reasonable.



              Rule of Cool wise, if a player character has an ability, you should default to interpreting it generously unless there is a reason not to.





              A DM could rule otherwise. For example, they could claim that the spell isn't requiring the ability check, but the spell scroll is. That kind of hair-splitting is a reasonable justification when there is any of Sense, Balance or even Rule of Cool reasons to say no.






              share|improve this answer























                up vote
                2
                down vote










                up vote
                2
                down vote









                Yes, 5e reads as plain English



                There is no reasonable English language reading that a check "to determine if you cast [the spell] successfully" is not a "[...] check as part of casting the spell".



                Barring rules stating otherwise, 5e reads as plain English.





                Balance wise, this is not going to be hugely significant; it will at most double the utility of "too high" level scrolls, and scrolls are either pure GP or handed out by DM fiat.



                Sense wise, you are a master Abjurer, being able to cast Abjuration spells from spell scrolls more reliably is reasonable.



                Rule of Cool wise, if a player character has an ability, you should default to interpreting it generously unless there is a reason not to.





                A DM could rule otherwise. For example, they could claim that the spell isn't requiring the ability check, but the spell scroll is. That kind of hair-splitting is a reasonable justification when there is any of Sense, Balance or even Rule of Cool reasons to say no.






                share|improve this answer












                Yes, 5e reads as plain English



                There is no reasonable English language reading that a check "to determine if you cast [the spell] successfully" is not a "[...] check as part of casting the spell".



                Barring rules stating otherwise, 5e reads as plain English.





                Balance wise, this is not going to be hugely significant; it will at most double the utility of "too high" level scrolls, and scrolls are either pure GP or handed out by DM fiat.



                Sense wise, you are a master Abjurer, being able to cast Abjuration spells from spell scrolls more reliably is reasonable.



                Rule of Cool wise, if a player character has an ability, you should default to interpreting it generously unless there is a reason not to.





                A DM could rule otherwise. For example, they could claim that the spell isn't requiring the ability check, but the spell scroll is. That kind of hair-splitting is a reasonable justification when there is any of Sense, Balance or even Rule of Cool reasons to say no.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered yesterday









                Yakk

                6,6281040




                6,6281040






























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