Chords and Keys
To what keys do chords like C6, C6/9 , Gm7b5 or dominant 7 sharp ninth chords, suspended chords, power chords, belong to?
Note: I don't specifically mean C6, I'm more focused on the type of chord and not the chord itself.
For that matter, apart from the minor, major, seventh and diminished chords in every key, how do I determine in which key do the other chords (like 6th chords, ninth chords, dominant 9, dominant minor 9) belong to?
Edit: ( I wasn't clear earlier)
What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
Edit edit: to be more clear, I tried to put many doubts into one question and hence the confusion. I'd rather just split the entire question into subdivisions.
1) a dominant 7 sharp 9 chord belongs to which key? Eg: Gdom7#9
2) a suspended chord belongs to which key?
3) a power chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
4) a ninth chord or 6/9 chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
theory chord-theory
asked Dec 21 '18 at 12:04
noorav
1196
|
show 9 more comments
To what keys do chords like C6, C6/9 , Gm7b5 or dominant 7 sharp ninth chords, suspended chords, power chords, belong to?
Note: I don't specifically mean C6, I'm more focused on the type of chord and not the chord itself.
For that matter, apart from the minor, major, seventh and diminished chords in every key, how do I determine in which key do the other chords (like 6th chords, ninth chords, dominant 9, dominant minor 9) belong to?
Edit: ( I wasn't clear earlier)
What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
Edit edit: to be more clear, I tried to put many doubts into one question and hence the confusion. I'd rather just split the entire question into subdivisions.
1) a dominant 7 sharp 9 chord belongs to which key? Eg: Gdom7#9
2) a suspended chord belongs to which key?
3) a power chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
4) a ninth chord or 6/9 chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
theory chord-theory
asked Dec 21 '18 at 12:04
noorav
1196
Most belong to the major scale or key. Some are altered, or belong to melodic minor. I think your question is way too broad. Are you look for a key that contains both C6/9 and Bm7b5? Please specify more details and bound the question. I may vote to close it.
– ggcg
Dec 21 '18 at 12:09
You'll need to be a lot clearer! Generally, we'll find something like C dominant7#9 in either its own key (C) or its subdominant key (F). But the question isn't clear.
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:11
@tim sorry for not being clear. What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 12:16
1
Use them whenever you feel the need. There are NO hard and fast rules. All Google can tell you is the diatonic chords from a key. Even that's not strict. They're just 'jazz' chords - extensions of basic chords, which may or may not sound good in certain places. Try not to be fenced in by following 'rules', it's far too restrictive, and you'll start to wonder why what you're playing is sounding bland!!
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:23
1
@noorav Okay, then I finally get your point! :) Maybe you should ask a new question about identifying possible tonal centers in various situations. Did I understand correctly, you're not improvising on pre-defined chords, but you're freely making up the whole thing as you go? So it's like, "wow this chord took the tonality somewhere interesting... where am I actually?"
– piiperi
Dec 23 '18 at 20:49
|
show 9 more comments
To what keys do chords like C6, C6/9 , Gm7b5 or dominant 7 sharp ninth chords, suspended chords, power chords, belong to?
Note: I don't specifically mean C6, I'm more focused on the type of chord and not the chord itself.
For that matter, apart from the minor, major, seventh and diminished chords in every key, how do I determine in which key do the other chords (like 6th chords, ninth chords, dominant 9, dominant minor 9) belong to?
Edit: ( I wasn't clear earlier)
What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
Edit edit: to be more clear, I tried to put many doubts into one question and hence the confusion. I'd rather just split the entire question into subdivisions.
1) a dominant 7 sharp 9 chord belongs to which key? Eg: Gdom7#9
2) a suspended chord belongs to which key?
3) a power chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
4) a ninth chord or 6/9 chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
theory chord-theory
asked Dec 21 '18 at 12:04
noorav
1196
To what keys do chords like C6, C6/9 , Gm7b5 or dominant 7 sharp ninth chords, suspended chords, power chords, belong to?
Note: I don't specifically mean C6, I'm more focused on the type of chord and not the chord itself.
For that matter, apart from the minor, major, seventh and diminished chords in every key, how do I determine in which key do the other chords (like 6th chords, ninth chords, dominant 9, dominant minor 9) belong to?
Edit: ( I wasn't clear earlier)
What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
Edit edit: to be more clear, I tried to put many doubts into one question and hence the confusion. I'd rather just split the entire question into subdivisions.
1) a dominant 7 sharp 9 chord belongs to which key? Eg: Gdom7#9
2) a suspended chord belongs to which key?
3) a power chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
4) a ninth chord or 6/9 chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
theory chord-theory
theory chord-theory
asked Dec 21 '18 at 12:04
noorav
1196
asked Dec 21 '18 at 12:04
noorav
1196
edited Dec 21 '18 at 12:28
asked Dec 21 '18 at 12:04
noorav
1196
asked Dec 21 '18 at 12:04
noorav
1196
asked Dec 21 '18 at 12:04
noorav
1196
1196
Most belong to the major scale or key. Some are altered, or belong to melodic minor. I think your question is way too broad. Are you look for a key that contains both C6/9 and Bm7b5? Please specify more details and bound the question. I may vote to close it.
– ggcg
Dec 21 '18 at 12:09
You'll need to be a lot clearer! Generally, we'll find something like C dominant7#9 in either its own key (C) or its subdominant key (F). But the question isn't clear.
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:11
@tim sorry for not being clear. What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 12:16
1
Use them whenever you feel the need. There are NO hard and fast rules. All Google can tell you is the diatonic chords from a key. Even that's not strict. They're just 'jazz' chords - extensions of basic chords, which may or may not sound good in certain places. Try not to be fenced in by following 'rules', it's far too restrictive, and you'll start to wonder why what you're playing is sounding bland!!
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:23
1
@noorav Okay, then I finally get your point! :) Maybe you should ask a new question about identifying possible tonal centers in various situations. Did I understand correctly, you're not improvising on pre-defined chords, but you're freely making up the whole thing as you go? So it's like, "wow this chord took the tonality somewhere interesting... where am I actually?"
– piiperi
Dec 23 '18 at 20:49
|
show 9 more comments
Most belong to the major scale or key. Some are altered, or belong to melodic minor. I think your question is way too broad. Are you look for a key that contains both C6/9 and Bm7b5? Please specify more details and bound the question. I may vote to close it.
– ggcg
Dec 21 '18 at 12:09
You'll need to be a lot clearer! Generally, we'll find something like C dominant7#9 in either its own key (C) or its subdominant key (F). But the question isn't clear.
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:11
@tim sorry for not being clear. What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 12:16
1
Use them whenever you feel the need. There are NO hard and fast rules. All Google can tell you is the diatonic chords from a key. Even that's not strict. They're just 'jazz' chords - extensions of basic chords, which may or may not sound good in certain places. Try not to be fenced in by following 'rules', it's far too restrictive, and you'll start to wonder why what you're playing is sounding bland!!
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:23
1
@noorav Okay, then I finally get your point! :) Maybe you should ask a new question about identifying possible tonal centers in various situations. Did I understand correctly, you're not improvising on pre-defined chords, but you're freely making up the whole thing as you go? So it's like, "wow this chord took the tonality somewhere interesting... where am I actually?"
– piiperi
Dec 23 '18 at 20:49
Most belong to the major scale or key. Some are altered, or belong to melodic minor. I think your question is way too broad. Are you look for a key that contains both C6/9 and Bm7b5? Please specify more details and bound the question. I may vote to close it.
– ggcg
Dec 21 '18 at 12:09
Most belong to the major scale or key. Some are altered, or belong to melodic minor. I think your question is way too broad. Are you look for a key that contains both C6/9 and Bm7b5? Please specify more details and bound the question. I may vote to close it.
– ggcg
Dec 21 '18 at 12:09
You'll need to be a lot clearer! Generally, we'll find something like C dominant7#9 in either its own key (C) or its subdominant key (F). But the question isn't clear.
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:11
You'll need to be a lot clearer! Generally, we'll find something like C dominant7#9 in either its own key (C) or its subdominant key (F). But the question isn't clear.
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:11
@tim sorry for not being clear. What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 12:16
@tim sorry for not being clear. What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 12:16
1
1
Use them whenever you feel the need. There are NO hard and fast rules. All Google can tell you is the diatonic chords from a key. Even that's not strict. They're just 'jazz' chords - extensions of basic chords, which may or may not sound good in certain places. Try not to be fenced in by following 'rules', it's far too restrictive, and you'll start to wonder why what you're playing is sounding bland!!
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:23
Use them whenever you feel the need. There are NO hard and fast rules. All Google can tell you is the diatonic chords from a key. Even that's not strict. They're just 'jazz' chords - extensions of basic chords, which may or may not sound good in certain places. Try not to be fenced in by following 'rules', it's far too restrictive, and you'll start to wonder why what you're playing is sounding bland!!
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:23
1
1
@noorav Okay, then I finally get your point! :) Maybe you should ask a new question about identifying possible tonal centers in various situations. Did I understand correctly, you're not improvising on pre-defined chords, but you're freely making up the whole thing as you go? So it's like, "wow this chord took the tonality somewhere interesting... where am I actually?"
– piiperi
Dec 23 '18 at 20:49
@noorav Okay, then I finally get your point! :) Maybe you should ask a new question about identifying possible tonal centers in various situations. Did I understand correctly, you're not improvising on pre-defined chords, but you're freely making up the whole thing as you go? So it's like, "wow this chord took the tonality somewhere interesting... where am I actually?"
– piiperi
Dec 23 '18 at 20:49
|
show 9 more comments
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
Don't confuse 'diatonic chords' with 'chords that are used in a song in a particular key'. Once again, I'll pull out one of my favourite quotes (the other one is 'Theory describes, it does not command'):
'Notes outside the scale do not necessarily affect the tonality'. Walter Piston, Harmony.
Consider this common progression:
C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C.
Plenty of notes there that are not in the C major scale. But it would be ridiculous to analyse it as a series of micro-modulations, we never stop being 'in the key of C'. We don't need to resort to 'borrowing' either. I7, iv are part of C major just as much as are the diatonic chords. They COULD be gateways to another key-centre, but in this case they aren't.
Let's try some 'jazz chords'. C, F, G, G7, C. 'In C major', right? Change the G7 to G7b9, G13(#5,#11) or even Db7 (a 'tritone substitute' of G7.) Still 'in C major' though.
You couldn't make an exhaustive list of chords 'in C major'. It would include SO many chords!
As always, context is all. YOU have to decide whether a chromatic chord is part of a modulation, or if it's just adding colour (which is what 'chromatic' means) to the key we started in.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:46
Laurence Payne
32k1559
just to clarify, so what you're trying say is jazz chords don't have a particular "key" but are used just to add flavour?
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:33
1
Not many chords have a fixed 'key'. Most of them ('jazz' or otherwise) can find a function in many keys. Take off the straitjacket of the diatonic scale, and the chords you can construct from it. It's a framework, not a restriction.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 21 '18 at 13:53
Oh okay. This helped me. Thanks a lot!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:57
The key of the chord depends on context and function, not on the particular notes of the chord. The notes of an Am chord may function as the tonic in Am or a D9 in G or a Fmaj7 in C, It depends on the context and function. . .
– PeterJ
Dec 21 '18 at 13:59
Maybe you meant to say C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C ?
– piiperi
Dec 21 '18 at 14:31
|
show 6 more comments
Theoretically, any chord that only contains notes that are in the key will be "in that key".
Let's use C major as our example scale (because it's easy and OP mentioned it).
1) a dominant 7 sharp 9 chord belongs to which key? Eg: Gdom7#9
Dominant 7 sharp ninth chords are actually never diatonic in any key. However, they are commonly substituted as the V in minor, so E7♯9 in A minor is pretty standard (harmonic minor).
2) a suspended chord belongs to which key?
Okay, in C major, the diatonic suspended 4th chords are built on C, D, E, G, and A. Sus2 chords are the same as sus4 chords on a different root. This can be generalised to any key.
3) a power chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
Power chords are so ambiguous, you can build them on any scale degree except the vii. You can't tell without context what key a power chord is in; there's not enough harmonic information.
4) a ninth chord or 6/9 chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
9th chords? There's a whole list of diatonic 9th chords right here: https://music.stackexchange.com/a/74558/45266
6/9 chords are different. They have less of a function, and like most chord types, they don't point to any key in particular without context. In C, you can build them on C, F, and G. If you leave out the 3rd, you can also use D.
In general, chords belong to the key they are written in. Unless it's some huge 13th chord, you can't tell which key is implied by a chord. Bm could be part of B minor, or it could be part of G major, or plenty of others.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 17:47
user45266
2,162326
2
This is so much more clear. Thanks a lot man!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 19:10
It's clear, but I'm afraid it's wrong. Chromatic notes and chords don't necessarily change the key. Take a simple C, C#dim7, Dm7, G7, C progression. It never leaves C major. C#dim7 is #Idim7 in C. Or look at a simple blues. C7, F7, G7, C7. It's a blues in C. Despite the Bb and Eb, it doesn't keep changing key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 22 '18 at 22:24
+1, this is a great answer. I think it would be worth mentioning that G7#9 is diatonic to Ab melodic minor if we include the b13 too (which is pretty common). Most wouldn't say that Ab melodic minor qualifies as a "key," but chord-scale theory still applies so there is some value. @LaurencePayne, this answer never says that chromatic notes/chords change the key. Saying that a chord isn't diatonic to a key does not imply that the chord changes the tonal center.
– jdjazz
Dec 23 '18 at 14:07
The first sentence is misleading. It suggests that we must look for some other key to justify a chromatic chord. It doesn't matter that a chord may be diatonic in some OTHER key. We're in THIS key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 23 '18 at 15:47
add a comment |
Extended chords do appear naturally "in key". Chords are generated by stacking thirds {1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13}. In some sense they are the scale played in thirds instead of seconds. This does not explain the occasional altered chord but for example the 6th and 6/9 chords occur naturally without going out of key.
Some of the more interesting jazz chords do arise naturally from the melodic minor scale. You can do the analysis yourself and see which ones pop out.
However, we do use "accidentals" in music. The introduction of an out of key note in a chord will likely serve a purpose in (1) harmonizing an out of key melody note in the head, or (2) serving as a leading note to something in the next chord of a sequence, (3) just sounds cool and doesn't have a theoretical explanation using the rules of western music theory. In many cases chords are altered in a sequence to produce chromatic lines within the movement of the multiple voices. There is a plethora of examples of the device in all guitar method books (and piano too I'm sure, but guitar is my instrument).
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:59
ggcg
4,375322
add a comment |
Laurence Payne's answer is very good and comprehensive. I'll just add this (hopefully funny or thought-provoking) example, which to me feels like just a simple I-VI-II-V-III-VI-II-V-I in C, it's just pimped with "jazzy" seasoning tricks. (enharmonic spellings might be "wrong", it's just the default stuff Sibelius did to MIDI input)
If you play a C note, I think you'll agree that that was the key-center all the time? There seem to be weird notes and chords, but the key-center doesn't really move away from C, in my opinion. There's a tritone substitution that tries to disguise the final dominant, but ... nah, simple bread-and-butter chord progression in C. Whatever the chords are, they do their job in this context, without creating a sense of modulation (YMMV). So couldn't it be justifiably said that all the chords belong in the key, in some way? You could argue that it's somewhat subjective, but isn't everything in music. :)
Edit: I'll add another example. Let's take out the bass notes, which might give the key away too easily. For example, look at the second chord. It's an F#/C#, so would you guess the key is C major?
answered Dec 21 '18 at 22:22
piiperi
5976
Yes, this is basically a 'cycle of 5ths' progression in C. Some would want to analyze it as a bunch of 'temporary tonics'. I really don't see the point.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 24 '18 at 2:03
@LaurencePayne The point was to highlight the weirdness of the OP's question, which to me seemed like asking for rules for figuring out the key when given a chord. "This chord, so what key?" That's not possible. My example would be even better, if the bass notes were left out. In order to figure out the tonality particularly for jazzy stuff that modulates, you have to take the whole context into account. The harmonic effect of a note, or a group of notes i.e. a chord, depends on the prevailing situation, i.e. what happened before it and what the expectations are.
– piiperi
Dec 24 '18 at 11:02
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f77740%2fchords-and-keys%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Don't confuse 'diatonic chords' with 'chords that are used in a song in a particular key'. Once again, I'll pull out one of my favourite quotes (the other one is 'Theory describes, it does not command'):
'Notes outside the scale do not necessarily affect the tonality'. Walter Piston, Harmony.
Consider this common progression:
C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C.
Plenty of notes there that are not in the C major scale. But it would be ridiculous to analyse it as a series of micro-modulations, we never stop being 'in the key of C'. We don't need to resort to 'borrowing' either. I7, iv are part of C major just as much as are the diatonic chords. They COULD be gateways to another key-centre, but in this case they aren't.
Let's try some 'jazz chords'. C, F, G, G7, C. 'In C major', right? Change the G7 to G7b9, G13(#5,#11) or even Db7 (a 'tritone substitute' of G7.) Still 'in C major' though.
You couldn't make an exhaustive list of chords 'in C major'. It would include SO many chords!
As always, context is all. YOU have to decide whether a chromatic chord is part of a modulation, or if it's just adding colour (which is what 'chromatic' means) to the key we started in.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:46
Laurence Payne
32k1559
just to clarify, so what you're trying say is jazz chords don't have a particular "key" but are used just to add flavour?
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:33
1
Not many chords have a fixed 'key'. Most of them ('jazz' or otherwise) can find a function in many keys. Take off the straitjacket of the diatonic scale, and the chords you can construct from it. It's a framework, not a restriction.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 21 '18 at 13:53
Oh okay. This helped me. Thanks a lot!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:57
The key of the chord depends on context and function, not on the particular notes of the chord. The notes of an Am chord may function as the tonic in Am or a D9 in G or a Fmaj7 in C, It depends on the context and function. . .
– PeterJ
Dec 21 '18 at 13:59
Maybe you meant to say C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C ?
– piiperi
Dec 21 '18 at 14:31
|
show 6 more comments
Don't confuse 'diatonic chords' with 'chords that are used in a song in a particular key'. Once again, I'll pull out one of my favourite quotes (the other one is 'Theory describes, it does not command'):
'Notes outside the scale do not necessarily affect the tonality'. Walter Piston, Harmony.
Consider this common progression:
C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C.
Plenty of notes there that are not in the C major scale. But it would be ridiculous to analyse it as a series of micro-modulations, we never stop being 'in the key of C'. We don't need to resort to 'borrowing' either. I7, iv are part of C major just as much as are the diatonic chords. They COULD be gateways to another key-centre, but in this case they aren't.
Let's try some 'jazz chords'. C, F, G, G7, C. 'In C major', right? Change the G7 to G7b9, G13(#5,#11) or even Db7 (a 'tritone substitute' of G7.) Still 'in C major' though.
You couldn't make an exhaustive list of chords 'in C major'. It would include SO many chords!
As always, context is all. YOU have to decide whether a chromatic chord is part of a modulation, or if it's just adding colour (which is what 'chromatic' means) to the key we started in.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:46
Laurence Payne
32k1559
just to clarify, so what you're trying say is jazz chords don't have a particular "key" but are used just to add flavour?
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:33
1
Not many chords have a fixed 'key'. Most of them ('jazz' or otherwise) can find a function in many keys. Take off the straitjacket of the diatonic scale, and the chords you can construct from it. It's a framework, not a restriction.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 21 '18 at 13:53
Oh okay. This helped me. Thanks a lot!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:57
The key of the chord depends on context and function, not on the particular notes of the chord. The notes of an Am chord may function as the tonic in Am or a D9 in G or a Fmaj7 in C, It depends on the context and function. . .
– PeterJ
Dec 21 '18 at 13:59
Maybe you meant to say C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C ?
– piiperi
Dec 21 '18 at 14:31
|
show 6 more comments
Don't confuse 'diatonic chords' with 'chords that are used in a song in a particular key'. Once again, I'll pull out one of my favourite quotes (the other one is 'Theory describes, it does not command'):
'Notes outside the scale do not necessarily affect the tonality'. Walter Piston, Harmony.
Consider this common progression:
C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C.
Plenty of notes there that are not in the C major scale. But it would be ridiculous to analyse it as a series of micro-modulations, we never stop being 'in the key of C'. We don't need to resort to 'borrowing' either. I7, iv are part of C major just as much as are the diatonic chords. They COULD be gateways to another key-centre, but in this case they aren't.
Let's try some 'jazz chords'. C, F, G, G7, C. 'In C major', right? Change the G7 to G7b9, G13(#5,#11) or even Db7 (a 'tritone substitute' of G7.) Still 'in C major' though.
You couldn't make an exhaustive list of chords 'in C major'. It would include SO many chords!
As always, context is all. YOU have to decide whether a chromatic chord is part of a modulation, or if it's just adding colour (which is what 'chromatic' means) to the key we started in.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:46
Laurence Payne
32k1559
Don't confuse 'diatonic chords' with 'chords that are used in a song in a particular key'. Once again, I'll pull out one of my favourite quotes (the other one is 'Theory describes, it does not command'):
'Notes outside the scale do not necessarily affect the tonality'. Walter Piston, Harmony.
Consider this common progression:
C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C.
Plenty of notes there that are not in the C major scale. But it would be ridiculous to analyse it as a series of micro-modulations, we never stop being 'in the key of C'. We don't need to resort to 'borrowing' either. I7, iv are part of C major just as much as are the diatonic chords. They COULD be gateways to another key-centre, but in this case they aren't.
Let's try some 'jazz chords'. C, F, G, G7, C. 'In C major', right? Change the G7 to G7b9, G13(#5,#11) or even Db7 (a 'tritone substitute' of G7.) Still 'in C major' though.
You couldn't make an exhaustive list of chords 'in C major'. It would include SO many chords!
As always, context is all. YOU have to decide whether a chromatic chord is part of a modulation, or if it's just adding colour (which is what 'chromatic' means) to the key we started in.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:46
Laurence Payne
32k1559
edited Dec 22 '18 at 22:27
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:46
Laurence Payne
32k1559
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:46
Laurence Payne
32k1559
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:46
Laurence Payne
32k1559
32k1559
just to clarify, so what you're trying say is jazz chords don't have a particular "key" but are used just to add flavour?
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:33
1
Not many chords have a fixed 'key'. Most of them ('jazz' or otherwise) can find a function in many keys. Take off the straitjacket of the diatonic scale, and the chords you can construct from it. It's a framework, not a restriction.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 21 '18 at 13:53
Oh okay. This helped me. Thanks a lot!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:57
The key of the chord depends on context and function, not on the particular notes of the chord. The notes of an Am chord may function as the tonic in Am or a D9 in G or a Fmaj7 in C, It depends on the context and function. . .
– PeterJ
Dec 21 '18 at 13:59
Maybe you meant to say C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C ?
– piiperi
Dec 21 '18 at 14:31
|
show 6 more comments
just to clarify, so what you're trying say is jazz chords don't have a particular "key" but are used just to add flavour?
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:33
1
Not many chords have a fixed 'key'. Most of them ('jazz' or otherwise) can find a function in many keys. Take off the straitjacket of the diatonic scale, and the chords you can construct from it. It's a framework, not a restriction.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 21 '18 at 13:53
Oh okay. This helped me. Thanks a lot!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:57
The key of the chord depends on context and function, not on the particular notes of the chord. The notes of an Am chord may function as the tonic in Am or a D9 in G or a Fmaj7 in C, It depends on the context and function. . .
– PeterJ
Dec 21 '18 at 13:59
Maybe you meant to say C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C ?
– piiperi
Dec 21 '18 at 14:31
just to clarify, so what you're trying say is jazz chords don't have a particular "key" but are used just to add flavour?
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:33
just to clarify, so what you're trying say is jazz chords don't have a particular "key" but are used just to add flavour?
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:33
1
1
Not many chords have a fixed 'key'. Most of them ('jazz' or otherwise) can find a function in many keys. Take off the straitjacket of the diatonic scale, and the chords you can construct from it. It's a framework, not a restriction.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 21 '18 at 13:53
Not many chords have a fixed 'key'. Most of them ('jazz' or otherwise) can find a function in many keys. Take off the straitjacket of the diatonic scale, and the chords you can construct from it. It's a framework, not a restriction.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 21 '18 at 13:53
Oh okay. This helped me. Thanks a lot!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:57
Oh okay. This helped me. Thanks a lot!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 13:57
The key of the chord depends on context and function, not on the particular notes of the chord. The notes of an Am chord may function as the tonic in Am or a D9 in G or a Fmaj7 in C, It depends on the context and function. . .
– PeterJ
Dec 21 '18 at 13:59
The key of the chord depends on context and function, not on the particular notes of the chord. The notes of an Am chord may function as the tonic in Am or a D9 in G or a Fmaj7 in C, It depends on the context and function. . .
– PeterJ
Dec 21 '18 at 13:59
Maybe you meant to say C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C ?
– piiperi
Dec 21 '18 at 14:31
Maybe you meant to say C, C7, F, Fm, G/C, G7, C ?
– piiperi
Dec 21 '18 at 14:31
|
show 6 more comments
Theoretically, any chord that only contains notes that are in the key will be "in that key".
Let's use C major as our example scale (because it's easy and OP mentioned it).
1) a dominant 7 sharp 9 chord belongs to which key? Eg: Gdom7#9
Dominant 7 sharp ninth chords are actually never diatonic in any key. However, they are commonly substituted as the V in minor, so E7♯9 in A minor is pretty standard (harmonic minor).
2) a suspended chord belongs to which key?
Okay, in C major, the diatonic suspended 4th chords are built on C, D, E, G, and A. Sus2 chords are the same as sus4 chords on a different root. This can be generalised to any key.
3) a power chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
Power chords are so ambiguous, you can build them on any scale degree except the vii. You can't tell without context what key a power chord is in; there's not enough harmonic information.
4) a ninth chord or 6/9 chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
9th chords? There's a whole list of diatonic 9th chords right here: https://music.stackexchange.com/a/74558/45266
6/9 chords are different. They have less of a function, and like most chord types, they don't point to any key in particular without context. In C, you can build them on C, F, and G. If you leave out the 3rd, you can also use D.
In general, chords belong to the key they are written in. Unless it's some huge 13th chord, you can't tell which key is implied by a chord. Bm could be part of B minor, or it could be part of G major, or plenty of others.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 17:47
user45266
2,162326
2
This is so much more clear. Thanks a lot man!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 19:10
It's clear, but I'm afraid it's wrong. Chromatic notes and chords don't necessarily change the key. Take a simple C, C#dim7, Dm7, G7, C progression. It never leaves C major. C#dim7 is #Idim7 in C. Or look at a simple blues. C7, F7, G7, C7. It's a blues in C. Despite the Bb and Eb, it doesn't keep changing key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 22 '18 at 22:24
+1, this is a great answer. I think it would be worth mentioning that G7#9 is diatonic to Ab melodic minor if we include the b13 too (which is pretty common). Most wouldn't say that Ab melodic minor qualifies as a "key," but chord-scale theory still applies so there is some value. @LaurencePayne, this answer never says that chromatic notes/chords change the key. Saying that a chord isn't diatonic to a key does not imply that the chord changes the tonal center.
– jdjazz
Dec 23 '18 at 14:07
The first sentence is misleading. It suggests that we must look for some other key to justify a chromatic chord. It doesn't matter that a chord may be diatonic in some OTHER key. We're in THIS key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 23 '18 at 15:47
add a comment |
Theoretically, any chord that only contains notes that are in the key will be "in that key".
Let's use C major as our example scale (because it's easy and OP mentioned it).
1) a dominant 7 sharp 9 chord belongs to which key? Eg: Gdom7#9
Dominant 7 sharp ninth chords are actually never diatonic in any key. However, they are commonly substituted as the V in minor, so E7♯9 in A minor is pretty standard (harmonic minor).
2) a suspended chord belongs to which key?
Okay, in C major, the diatonic suspended 4th chords are built on C, D, E, G, and A. Sus2 chords are the same as sus4 chords on a different root. This can be generalised to any key.
3) a power chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
Power chords are so ambiguous, you can build them on any scale degree except the vii. You can't tell without context what key a power chord is in; there's not enough harmonic information.
4) a ninth chord or 6/9 chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
9th chords? There's a whole list of diatonic 9th chords right here: https://music.stackexchange.com/a/74558/45266
6/9 chords are different. They have less of a function, and like most chord types, they don't point to any key in particular without context. In C, you can build them on C, F, and G. If you leave out the 3rd, you can also use D.
In general, chords belong to the key they are written in. Unless it's some huge 13th chord, you can't tell which key is implied by a chord. Bm could be part of B minor, or it could be part of G major, or plenty of others.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 17:47
user45266
2,162326
2
This is so much more clear. Thanks a lot man!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 19:10
It's clear, but I'm afraid it's wrong. Chromatic notes and chords don't necessarily change the key. Take a simple C, C#dim7, Dm7, G7, C progression. It never leaves C major. C#dim7 is #Idim7 in C. Or look at a simple blues. C7, F7, G7, C7. It's a blues in C. Despite the Bb and Eb, it doesn't keep changing key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 22 '18 at 22:24
+1, this is a great answer. I think it would be worth mentioning that G7#9 is diatonic to Ab melodic minor if we include the b13 too (which is pretty common). Most wouldn't say that Ab melodic minor qualifies as a "key," but chord-scale theory still applies so there is some value. @LaurencePayne, this answer never says that chromatic notes/chords change the key. Saying that a chord isn't diatonic to a key does not imply that the chord changes the tonal center.
– jdjazz
Dec 23 '18 at 14:07
The first sentence is misleading. It suggests that we must look for some other key to justify a chromatic chord. It doesn't matter that a chord may be diatonic in some OTHER key. We're in THIS key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 23 '18 at 15:47
add a comment |
Theoretically, any chord that only contains notes that are in the key will be "in that key".
Let's use C major as our example scale (because it's easy and OP mentioned it).
1) a dominant 7 sharp 9 chord belongs to which key? Eg: Gdom7#9
Dominant 7 sharp ninth chords are actually never diatonic in any key. However, they are commonly substituted as the V in minor, so E7♯9 in A minor is pretty standard (harmonic minor).
2) a suspended chord belongs to which key?
Okay, in C major, the diatonic suspended 4th chords are built on C, D, E, G, and A. Sus2 chords are the same as sus4 chords on a different root. This can be generalised to any key.
3) a power chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
Power chords are so ambiguous, you can build them on any scale degree except the vii. You can't tell without context what key a power chord is in; there's not enough harmonic information.
4) a ninth chord or 6/9 chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
9th chords? There's a whole list of diatonic 9th chords right here: https://music.stackexchange.com/a/74558/45266
6/9 chords are different. They have less of a function, and like most chord types, they don't point to any key in particular without context. In C, you can build them on C, F, and G. If you leave out the 3rd, you can also use D.
In general, chords belong to the key they are written in. Unless it's some huge 13th chord, you can't tell which key is implied by a chord. Bm could be part of B minor, or it could be part of G major, or plenty of others.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 17:47
user45266
2,162326
Theoretically, any chord that only contains notes that are in the key will be "in that key".
Let's use C major as our example scale (because it's easy and OP mentioned it).
1) a dominant 7 sharp 9 chord belongs to which key? Eg: Gdom7#9
Dominant 7 sharp ninth chords are actually never diatonic in any key. However, they are commonly substituted as the V in minor, so E7♯9 in A minor is pretty standard (harmonic minor).
2) a suspended chord belongs to which key?
Okay, in C major, the diatonic suspended 4th chords are built on C, D, E, G, and A. Sus2 chords are the same as sus4 chords on a different root. This can be generalised to any key.
3) a power chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
Power chords are so ambiguous, you can build them on any scale degree except the vii. You can't tell without context what key a power chord is in; there's not enough harmonic information.
4) a ninth chord or 6/9 chord belongs to which key? And how do you determine it?
9th chords? There's a whole list of diatonic 9th chords right here: https://music.stackexchange.com/a/74558/45266
6/9 chords are different. They have less of a function, and like most chord types, they don't point to any key in particular without context. In C, you can build them on C, F, and G. If you leave out the 3rd, you can also use D.
In general, chords belong to the key they are written in. Unless it's some huge 13th chord, you can't tell which key is implied by a chord. Bm could be part of B minor, or it could be part of G major, or plenty of others.
answered Dec 21 '18 at 17:47
user45266
2,162326
answered Dec 21 '18 at 17:47
user45266
2,162326
answered Dec 21 '18 at 17:47
user45266
2,162326
answered Dec 21 '18 at 17:47
user45266
2,162326
2,162326
2
This is so much more clear. Thanks a lot man!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 19:10
It's clear, but I'm afraid it's wrong. Chromatic notes and chords don't necessarily change the key. Take a simple C, C#dim7, Dm7, G7, C progression. It never leaves C major. C#dim7 is #Idim7 in C. Or look at a simple blues. C7, F7, G7, C7. It's a blues in C. Despite the Bb and Eb, it doesn't keep changing key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 22 '18 at 22:24
+1, this is a great answer. I think it would be worth mentioning that G7#9 is diatonic to Ab melodic minor if we include the b13 too (which is pretty common). Most wouldn't say that Ab melodic minor qualifies as a "key," but chord-scale theory still applies so there is some value. @LaurencePayne, this answer never says that chromatic notes/chords change the key. Saying that a chord isn't diatonic to a key does not imply that the chord changes the tonal center.
– jdjazz
Dec 23 '18 at 14:07
The first sentence is misleading. It suggests that we must look for some other key to justify a chromatic chord. It doesn't matter that a chord may be diatonic in some OTHER key. We're in THIS key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 23 '18 at 15:47
add a comment |
2
This is so much more clear. Thanks a lot man!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 19:10
It's clear, but I'm afraid it's wrong. Chromatic notes and chords don't necessarily change the key. Take a simple C, C#dim7, Dm7, G7, C progression. It never leaves C major. C#dim7 is #Idim7 in C. Or look at a simple blues. C7, F7, G7, C7. It's a blues in C. Despite the Bb and Eb, it doesn't keep changing key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 22 '18 at 22:24
+1, this is a great answer. I think it would be worth mentioning that G7#9 is diatonic to Ab melodic minor if we include the b13 too (which is pretty common). Most wouldn't say that Ab melodic minor qualifies as a "key," but chord-scale theory still applies so there is some value. @LaurencePayne, this answer never says that chromatic notes/chords change the key. Saying that a chord isn't diatonic to a key does not imply that the chord changes the tonal center.
– jdjazz
Dec 23 '18 at 14:07
The first sentence is misleading. It suggests that we must look for some other key to justify a chromatic chord. It doesn't matter that a chord may be diatonic in some OTHER key. We're in THIS key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 23 '18 at 15:47
2
2
This is so much more clear. Thanks a lot man!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 19:10
This is so much more clear. Thanks a lot man!
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 19:10
It's clear, but I'm afraid it's wrong. Chromatic notes and chords don't necessarily change the key. Take a simple C, C#dim7, Dm7, G7, C progression. It never leaves C major. C#dim7 is #Idim7 in C. Or look at a simple blues. C7, F7, G7, C7. It's a blues in C. Despite the Bb and Eb, it doesn't keep changing key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 22 '18 at 22:24
It's clear, but I'm afraid it's wrong. Chromatic notes and chords don't necessarily change the key. Take a simple C, C#dim7, Dm7, G7, C progression. It never leaves C major. C#dim7 is #Idim7 in C. Or look at a simple blues. C7, F7, G7, C7. It's a blues in C. Despite the Bb and Eb, it doesn't keep changing key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 22 '18 at 22:24
+1, this is a great answer. I think it would be worth mentioning that G7#9 is diatonic to Ab melodic minor if we include the b13 too (which is pretty common). Most wouldn't say that Ab melodic minor qualifies as a "key," but chord-scale theory still applies so there is some value. @LaurencePayne, this answer never says that chromatic notes/chords change the key. Saying that a chord isn't diatonic to a key does not imply that the chord changes the tonal center.
– jdjazz
Dec 23 '18 at 14:07
+1, this is a great answer. I think it would be worth mentioning that G7#9 is diatonic to Ab melodic minor if we include the b13 too (which is pretty common). Most wouldn't say that Ab melodic minor qualifies as a "key," but chord-scale theory still applies so there is some value. @LaurencePayne, this answer never says that chromatic notes/chords change the key. Saying that a chord isn't diatonic to a key does not imply that the chord changes the tonal center.
– jdjazz
Dec 23 '18 at 14:07
The first sentence is misleading. It suggests that we must look for some other key to justify a chromatic chord. It doesn't matter that a chord may be diatonic in some OTHER key. We're in THIS key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 23 '18 at 15:47
The first sentence is misleading. It suggests that we must look for some other key to justify a chromatic chord. It doesn't matter that a chord may be diatonic in some OTHER key. We're in THIS key!
– Laurence Payne
Dec 23 '18 at 15:47
add a comment |
Extended chords do appear naturally "in key". Chords are generated by stacking thirds {1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13}. In some sense they are the scale played in thirds instead of seconds. This does not explain the occasional altered chord but for example the 6th and 6/9 chords occur naturally without going out of key.
Some of the more interesting jazz chords do arise naturally from the melodic minor scale. You can do the analysis yourself and see which ones pop out.
However, we do use "accidentals" in music. The introduction of an out of key note in a chord will likely serve a purpose in (1) harmonizing an out of key melody note in the head, or (2) serving as a leading note to something in the next chord of a sequence, (3) just sounds cool and doesn't have a theoretical explanation using the rules of western music theory. In many cases chords are altered in a sequence to produce chromatic lines within the movement of the multiple voices. There is a plethora of examples of the device in all guitar method books (and piano too I'm sure, but guitar is my instrument).
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:59
ggcg
4,375322
add a comment |
Extended chords do appear naturally "in key". Chords are generated by stacking thirds {1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13}. In some sense they are the scale played in thirds instead of seconds. This does not explain the occasional altered chord but for example the 6th and 6/9 chords occur naturally without going out of key.
Some of the more interesting jazz chords do arise naturally from the melodic minor scale. You can do the analysis yourself and see which ones pop out.
However, we do use "accidentals" in music. The introduction of an out of key note in a chord will likely serve a purpose in (1) harmonizing an out of key melody note in the head, or (2) serving as a leading note to something in the next chord of a sequence, (3) just sounds cool and doesn't have a theoretical explanation using the rules of western music theory. In many cases chords are altered in a sequence to produce chromatic lines within the movement of the multiple voices. There is a plethora of examples of the device in all guitar method books (and piano too I'm sure, but guitar is my instrument).
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:59
ggcg
4,375322
add a comment |
Extended chords do appear naturally "in key". Chords are generated by stacking thirds {1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13}. In some sense they are the scale played in thirds instead of seconds. This does not explain the occasional altered chord but for example the 6th and 6/9 chords occur naturally without going out of key.
Some of the more interesting jazz chords do arise naturally from the melodic minor scale. You can do the analysis yourself and see which ones pop out.
However, we do use "accidentals" in music. The introduction of an out of key note in a chord will likely serve a purpose in (1) harmonizing an out of key melody note in the head, or (2) serving as a leading note to something in the next chord of a sequence, (3) just sounds cool and doesn't have a theoretical explanation using the rules of western music theory. In many cases chords are altered in a sequence to produce chromatic lines within the movement of the multiple voices. There is a plethora of examples of the device in all guitar method books (and piano too I'm sure, but guitar is my instrument).
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:59
ggcg
4,375322
Extended chords do appear naturally "in key". Chords are generated by stacking thirds {1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13}. In some sense they are the scale played in thirds instead of seconds. This does not explain the occasional altered chord but for example the 6th and 6/9 chords occur naturally without going out of key.
Some of the more interesting jazz chords do arise naturally from the melodic minor scale. You can do the analysis yourself and see which ones pop out.
However, we do use "accidentals" in music. The introduction of an out of key note in a chord will likely serve a purpose in (1) harmonizing an out of key melody note in the head, or (2) serving as a leading note to something in the next chord of a sequence, (3) just sounds cool and doesn't have a theoretical explanation using the rules of western music theory. In many cases chords are altered in a sequence to produce chromatic lines within the movement of the multiple voices. There is a plethora of examples of the device in all guitar method books (and piano too I'm sure, but guitar is my instrument).
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:59
ggcg
4,375322
edited Dec 21 '18 at 18:03
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:59
ggcg
4,375322
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:59
ggcg
4,375322
answered Dec 21 '18 at 12:59
ggcg
4,375322
4,375322
add a comment |
add a comment |
Laurence Payne's answer is very good and comprehensive. I'll just add this (hopefully funny or thought-provoking) example, which to me feels like just a simple I-VI-II-V-III-VI-II-V-I in C, it's just pimped with "jazzy" seasoning tricks. (enharmonic spellings might be "wrong", it's just the default stuff Sibelius did to MIDI input)
If you play a C note, I think you'll agree that that was the key-center all the time? There seem to be weird notes and chords, but the key-center doesn't really move away from C, in my opinion. There's a tritone substitution that tries to disguise the final dominant, but ... nah, simple bread-and-butter chord progression in C. Whatever the chords are, they do their job in this context, without creating a sense of modulation (YMMV). So couldn't it be justifiably said that all the chords belong in the key, in some way? You could argue that it's somewhat subjective, but isn't everything in music. :)
Edit: I'll add another example. Let's take out the bass notes, which might give the key away too easily. For example, look at the second chord. It's an F#/C#, so would you guess the key is C major?
answered Dec 21 '18 at 22:22
piiperi
5976
Yes, this is basically a 'cycle of 5ths' progression in C. Some would want to analyze it as a bunch of 'temporary tonics'. I really don't see the point.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 24 '18 at 2:03
@LaurencePayne The point was to highlight the weirdness of the OP's question, which to me seemed like asking for rules for figuring out the key when given a chord. "This chord, so what key?" That's not possible. My example would be even better, if the bass notes were left out. In order to figure out the tonality particularly for jazzy stuff that modulates, you have to take the whole context into account. The harmonic effect of a note, or a group of notes i.e. a chord, depends on the prevailing situation, i.e. what happened before it and what the expectations are.
– piiperi
Dec 24 '18 at 11:02
add a comment |
Laurence Payne's answer is very good and comprehensive. I'll just add this (hopefully funny or thought-provoking) example, which to me feels like just a simple I-VI-II-V-III-VI-II-V-I in C, it's just pimped with "jazzy" seasoning tricks. (enharmonic spellings might be "wrong", it's just the default stuff Sibelius did to MIDI input)
If you play a C note, I think you'll agree that that was the key-center all the time? There seem to be weird notes and chords, but the key-center doesn't really move away from C, in my opinion. There's a tritone substitution that tries to disguise the final dominant, but ... nah, simple bread-and-butter chord progression in C. Whatever the chords are, they do their job in this context, without creating a sense of modulation (YMMV). So couldn't it be justifiably said that all the chords belong in the key, in some way? You could argue that it's somewhat subjective, but isn't everything in music. :)
Edit: I'll add another example. Let's take out the bass notes, which might give the key away too easily. For example, look at the second chord. It's an F#/C#, so would you guess the key is C major?
answered Dec 21 '18 at 22:22
piiperi
5976
Yes, this is basically a 'cycle of 5ths' progression in C. Some would want to analyze it as a bunch of 'temporary tonics'. I really don't see the point.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 24 '18 at 2:03
@LaurencePayne The point was to highlight the weirdness of the OP's question, which to me seemed like asking for rules for figuring out the key when given a chord. "This chord, so what key?" That's not possible. My example would be even better, if the bass notes were left out. In order to figure out the tonality particularly for jazzy stuff that modulates, you have to take the whole context into account. The harmonic effect of a note, or a group of notes i.e. a chord, depends on the prevailing situation, i.e. what happened before it and what the expectations are.
– piiperi
Dec 24 '18 at 11:02
add a comment |
Laurence Payne's answer is very good and comprehensive. I'll just add this (hopefully funny or thought-provoking) example, which to me feels like just a simple I-VI-II-V-III-VI-II-V-I in C, it's just pimped with "jazzy" seasoning tricks. (enharmonic spellings might be "wrong", it's just the default stuff Sibelius did to MIDI input)
If you play a C note, I think you'll agree that that was the key-center all the time? There seem to be weird notes and chords, but the key-center doesn't really move away from C, in my opinion. There's a tritone substitution that tries to disguise the final dominant, but ... nah, simple bread-and-butter chord progression in C. Whatever the chords are, they do their job in this context, without creating a sense of modulation (YMMV). So couldn't it be justifiably said that all the chords belong in the key, in some way? You could argue that it's somewhat subjective, but isn't everything in music. :)
Edit: I'll add another example. Let's take out the bass notes, which might give the key away too easily. For example, look at the second chord. It's an F#/C#, so would you guess the key is C major?
answered Dec 21 '18 at 22:22
piiperi
5976
Laurence Payne's answer is very good and comprehensive. I'll just add this (hopefully funny or thought-provoking) example, which to me feels like just a simple I-VI-II-V-III-VI-II-V-I in C, it's just pimped with "jazzy" seasoning tricks. (enharmonic spellings might be "wrong", it's just the default stuff Sibelius did to MIDI input)
If you play a C note, I think you'll agree that that was the key-center all the time? There seem to be weird notes and chords, but the key-center doesn't really move away from C, in my opinion. There's a tritone substitution that tries to disguise the final dominant, but ... nah, simple bread-and-butter chord progression in C. Whatever the chords are, they do their job in this context, without creating a sense of modulation (YMMV). So couldn't it be justifiably said that all the chords belong in the key, in some way? You could argue that it's somewhat subjective, but isn't everything in music. :)
Edit: I'll add another example. Let's take out the bass notes, which might give the key away too easily. For example, look at the second chord. It's an F#/C#, so would you guess the key is C major?
answered Dec 21 '18 at 22:22
piiperi
5976
edited Dec 24 '18 at 11:20
answered Dec 21 '18 at 22:22
piiperi
5976
answered Dec 21 '18 at 22:22
piiperi
5976
answered Dec 21 '18 at 22:22
piiperi
5976
5976
Yes, this is basically a 'cycle of 5ths' progression in C. Some would want to analyze it as a bunch of 'temporary tonics'. I really don't see the point.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 24 '18 at 2:03
@LaurencePayne The point was to highlight the weirdness of the OP's question, which to me seemed like asking for rules for figuring out the key when given a chord. "This chord, so what key?" That's not possible. My example would be even better, if the bass notes were left out. In order to figure out the tonality particularly for jazzy stuff that modulates, you have to take the whole context into account. The harmonic effect of a note, or a group of notes i.e. a chord, depends on the prevailing situation, i.e. what happened before it and what the expectations are.
– piiperi
Dec 24 '18 at 11:02
add a comment |
Yes, this is basically a 'cycle of 5ths' progression in C. Some would want to analyze it as a bunch of 'temporary tonics'. I really don't see the point.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 24 '18 at 2:03
@LaurencePayne The point was to highlight the weirdness of the OP's question, which to me seemed like asking for rules for figuring out the key when given a chord. "This chord, so what key?" That's not possible. My example would be even better, if the bass notes were left out. In order to figure out the tonality particularly for jazzy stuff that modulates, you have to take the whole context into account. The harmonic effect of a note, or a group of notes i.e. a chord, depends on the prevailing situation, i.e. what happened before it and what the expectations are.
– piiperi
Dec 24 '18 at 11:02
Yes, this is basically a 'cycle of 5ths' progression in C. Some would want to analyze it as a bunch of 'temporary tonics'. I really don't see the point.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 24 '18 at 2:03
Yes, this is basically a 'cycle of 5ths' progression in C. Some would want to analyze it as a bunch of 'temporary tonics'. I really don't see the point.
– Laurence Payne
Dec 24 '18 at 2:03
@LaurencePayne The point was to highlight the weirdness of the OP's question, which to me seemed like asking for rules for figuring out the key when given a chord. "This chord, so what key?" That's not possible. My example would be even better, if the bass notes were left out. In order to figure out the tonality particularly for jazzy stuff that modulates, you have to take the whole context into account. The harmonic effect of a note, or a group of notes i.e. a chord, depends on the prevailing situation, i.e. what happened before it and what the expectations are.
– piiperi
Dec 24 '18 at 11:02
@LaurencePayne The point was to highlight the weirdness of the OP's question, which to me seemed like asking for rules for figuring out the key when given a chord. "This chord, so what key?" That's not possible. My example would be even better, if the bass notes were left out. In order to figure out the tonality particularly for jazzy stuff that modulates, you have to take the whole context into account. The harmonic effect of a note, or a group of notes i.e. a chord, depends on the prevailing situation, i.e. what happened before it and what the expectations are.
– piiperi
Dec 24 '18 at 11:02
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f77740%2fchords-and-keys%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Most belong to the major scale or key. Some are altered, or belong to melodic minor. I think your question is way too broad. Are you look for a key that contains both C6/9 and Bm7b5? Please specify more details and bound the question. I may vote to close it.
– ggcg
Dec 21 '18 at 12:09
You'll need to be a lot clearer! Generally, we'll find something like C dominant7#9 in either its own key (C) or its subdominant key (F). But the question isn't clear.
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:11
@tim sorry for not being clear. What I meant was, for example when we Google "chords in C major" we get the I-vii° chords of C major and the added 7th chords. This goes for any key that I Google. But what about the fancier chords like C6/9, dominant 7sharp 9, and all those jazz chords? I've never seen these chords pop up when someone Googles for chords in a key. So I was wondering to what chords these keys belong to and how one goes about determining that.
– noorav
Dec 21 '18 at 12:16
1
Use them whenever you feel the need. There are NO hard and fast rules. All Google can tell you is the diatonic chords from a key. Even that's not strict. They're just 'jazz' chords - extensions of basic chords, which may or may not sound good in certain places. Try not to be fenced in by following 'rules', it's far too restrictive, and you'll start to wonder why what you're playing is sounding bland!!
– Tim
Dec 21 '18 at 12:23
1
@noorav Okay, then I finally get your point! :) Maybe you should ask a new question about identifying possible tonal centers in various situations. Did I understand correctly, you're not improvising on pre-defined chords, but you're freely making up the whole thing as you go? So it's like, "wow this chord took the tonality somewhere interesting... where am I actually?"
– piiperi
Dec 23 '18 at 20:49