Can I have two different instruments play the same melody at the same octave?











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I am writing an orchestral track and so far I have written the melody of strings (violins and such) and I want to add trumpets and here are 3 things I consider.



1) Have the trumpets play the same melody as the violins at the exact same octave, is there any reason I should consider this?



2) Have the trumpets play a counter
melody to the violins,



3) Have the trumpets play the same melody of the violins an octave apart.



Does 1 sound good at all?
Which of the above generally will give the best result?










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  • 2




    Is there a reason you can only pick one? Does time permit variations on a theme?
    – corsiKa
    Nov 20 at 1:21






  • 3




    Not if one of them is the violas! //typical insult
    – Carl Witthoft
    2 days ago










  • You absolutely can. The only possible issue is one instrument drowning out the tone of the other. Just take care of dynamics, etc.
    – ggcg
    2 days ago















up vote
8
down vote

favorite
2












I am writing an orchestral track and so far I have written the melody of strings (violins and such) and I want to add trumpets and here are 3 things I consider.



1) Have the trumpets play the same melody as the violins at the exact same octave, is there any reason I should consider this?



2) Have the trumpets play a counter
melody to the violins,



3) Have the trumpets play the same melody of the violins an octave apart.



Does 1 sound good at all?
Which of the above generally will give the best result?










share|improve this question




















  • 2




    Is there a reason you can only pick one? Does time permit variations on a theme?
    – corsiKa
    Nov 20 at 1:21






  • 3




    Not if one of them is the violas! //typical insult
    – Carl Witthoft
    2 days ago










  • You absolutely can. The only possible issue is one instrument drowning out the tone of the other. Just take care of dynamics, etc.
    – ggcg
    2 days ago













up vote
8
down vote

favorite
2









up vote
8
down vote

favorite
2






2





I am writing an orchestral track and so far I have written the melody of strings (violins and such) and I want to add trumpets and here are 3 things I consider.



1) Have the trumpets play the same melody as the violins at the exact same octave, is there any reason I should consider this?



2) Have the trumpets play a counter
melody to the violins,



3) Have the trumpets play the same melody of the violins an octave apart.



Does 1 sound good at all?
Which of the above generally will give the best result?










share|improve this question















I am writing an orchestral track and so far I have written the melody of strings (violins and such) and I want to add trumpets and here are 3 things I consider.



1) Have the trumpets play the same melody as the violins at the exact same octave, is there any reason I should consider this?



2) Have the trumpets play a counter
melody to the violins,



3) Have the trumpets play the same melody of the violins an octave apart.



Does 1 sound good at all?
Which of the above generally will give the best result?







composition harmony orchestra






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited yesterday









Dave Jacoby

8,36412350




8,36412350










asked Nov 19 at 17:42









paradox

10115




10115








  • 2




    Is there a reason you can only pick one? Does time permit variations on a theme?
    – corsiKa
    Nov 20 at 1:21






  • 3




    Not if one of them is the violas! //typical insult
    – Carl Witthoft
    2 days ago










  • You absolutely can. The only possible issue is one instrument drowning out the tone of the other. Just take care of dynamics, etc.
    – ggcg
    2 days ago














  • 2




    Is there a reason you can only pick one? Does time permit variations on a theme?
    – corsiKa
    Nov 20 at 1:21






  • 3




    Not if one of them is the violas! //typical insult
    – Carl Witthoft
    2 days ago










  • You absolutely can. The only possible issue is one instrument drowning out the tone of the other. Just take care of dynamics, etc.
    – ggcg
    2 days ago








2




2




Is there a reason you can only pick one? Does time permit variations on a theme?
– corsiKa
Nov 20 at 1:21




Is there a reason you can only pick one? Does time permit variations on a theme?
– corsiKa
Nov 20 at 1:21




3




3




Not if one of them is the violas! //typical insult
– Carl Witthoft
2 days ago




Not if one of them is the violas! //typical insult
– Carl Witthoft
2 days ago












You absolutely can. The only possible issue is one instrument drowning out the tone of the other. Just take care of dynamics, etc.
– ggcg
2 days ago




You absolutely can. The only possible issue is one instrument drowning out the tone of the other. Just take care of dynamics, etc.
– ggcg
2 days ago










7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
16
down vote













All three would be viable options.



Doubling the parts in unisons or octaves normally would be for bending a unique timbre. Obviously doubling by unison/octave does not create a harmonic change or counterpoint so the main point would be the timbre/tone color.




Can I have..?




If part of your concern is about the counterpoint rule against parallel octaves, that doesn't apply to instrumental doubling as an orchestration technique.






share|improve this answer

















  • 1




    I remember reading that Rimsky-Korsakov suggested that consistently adding a flute to double a string section creates a more solid timbre, or something along those lines. Definitely a valid option! Trumpets and violins sound a little rarer, but might as well try it out.
    – Luke Sawczak
    Nov 19 at 18:54






  • 2




    And there are differences between real instruments and players versus a DAW. Real trumpeters eventually run out a breath and DAW strings will never miss a note! I imagine quite a few orchestrations created in a DAW that would be difficult to pull off with a real orchestra. So there is latitude to experiment more in a DAW.
    – Michael Curtis
    Nov 19 at 19:24










  • In an average non-professional orchestra, having the violins play the main melody and a trumpet a counter-melody is asking for trouble (and for a professional orchestra, you still might want some sort of marking in the score so the trumpeter knows they are not playing the main melody).
    – Alexander Woo
    Nov 19 at 22:19






  • 4




    @AlexanderWoo, I think it would be interesting and helpful to elaborate about why it could be trouble in an answer.
    – Michael Curtis
    Nov 19 at 22:33










  • @AlexanderWoo As someone who played Trumpet in an orchestra for a few years I agree with your point, and would add that I think often composers give these parts to a solo 2nd or 3rd trumpet rather than the principal if they are intending to complement a violin section rather than overpower it. It's also pretty common for these parts to go essentially unheard so that doesn't always work - the skill of the instrumentalists is very important in making your decision and the conductor may have to use his or her own judgment in assigning the parts to get optimal results.
    – Darren Ringer
    2 days ago


















up vote
6
down vote













There is nothing theoretically wrong with any of your ideas. Making these types of orchestrating decisions is what an arranger does. Each of these options will create a different effect on the listener. I would recommend creating three different versions, listening to them, and then decided which works best for the situation.



You could even use all three ideas by repeating the melody with a different orchestration each time.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1




    Just to build off this answer a bit, three different version could be incorporated into some repeats in the score.
    – Michael Curtis
    Nov 19 at 17:58










  • @MichaelCurtis Good point. I've modified the answer to include your suggestion.
    – Peter
    Nov 19 at 18:02


















up vote
2
down vote













Take a listen to Bolero by Ravel.



You can think of it as a study on varying instrument combinations while maintaining the same the rhythm and melody. You can really start to hear the effect at minute 6:20.



See also: http://theidiomaticorchestra.net/parallel-dobling/






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Mitch Roe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • Drat. You got there first.
    – nigel222
    2 days ago










  • Note that some of the most striking effects in Bolero are due to parallel writing in intervals other than octaves. For example, the "pipe organ" effect has one piccolo a perfect fifth above the melody, and the other piccolo a major tenth above.
    – Michael Seifert
    2 days ago


















up vote
0
down vote













Think of combinations of instruments playing in parallel unisons, fifths, and octaves as though they were kinds of composite instruments. Then an arranger writing for violin, flute, and cello wouldn't have just three instruments at his disposal, but also many more like the univiolinflute, the octaviolinflute, the suboctaviolinflute, the univiolincello, the octaviolincello, the doubloctabiolincello, the octaflutecello, the doubloctaflutecello, etc.



The reason for the rule against parallel octaves or unisons is that having groups of two or more instruments play parallel octaves or unisons will often make it sound as though one has switched to using a different set of instruments. This can be a good thing if done at places where such a switch would make musical sense, but bad if such switches seem to occur willy-nilly without rhyme or reason.



The goal of music theory is not to identify things that are "good" or "bad", but rather to allow composers to identify how things are likely to be perceived. If a composer wants part of a phrase to sound as though it's produced by a univiolinflute while other parts are played by a distinct violin and flute, great--use parallel intervals to achieve that effect. The music theory rules against parallel intervals doesn't say such things are "bad", but rather say that parallel intervals are likely to create such an effect whether the composer wants it or not, and composers should avoid them except when that effect is wanted.






share|improve this answer

















  • 2




    The reason for the rule against parallel octaves etc. is to achieve independence of voices for a polyphonic texture. Other than that there really isn't a problem with parallel writing.
    – Michael Curtis
    Nov 19 at 21:23










  • @MichaelCurtis: One could use the term "texture" to describe the effect I attribute to "composite instruments"; places where voices move in parallel unisons, fifths, or octaves will have a different texture from places where they don't. The same principle I've alluded to will apply: changing textures when it makes musical sense is often good, but changing textures arbitrarily generally isn't.
    – supercat
    Nov 19 at 22:19










  • I'm using 'texture' in the academic, musical sense: monophonic, homophonic, polyphonic, etc. - not in the generic sense like 'smooth' or 'rough' - only to clarify the point about a "rule"
    – Michael Curtis
    Nov 19 at 22:30


















up vote
0
down vote













All your proposed schemes are viable, on the surface.
Without seeing what the violinists are playing, having the Trumpet double them is possible given that the parts are not unplayable by a trumpeter. If it's too high in the range, your option of doubling at the octave is possible. If you don't have space for the trumpet to breath you might consider trading lines between members of the trumpet section. If you write in a key that is not particularly trumpet friendly and approachable a professional will certainly tell you. As for melody counter melody.... Go for it, it might work, it might not.






share|improve this answer




























    up vote
    0
    down vote













    Way outside your context, but in Simon & Garfunkel's "The Boxer", the instrumental break is doubled cornet and pedal steel guitar. There are points where brass aspects stick out, and times where it sounds more steel. I really like it.



    Unless you're is a situation where you can't change the orchestration when you get to the practice point, I'd give doubling the melody a shot.






    share|improve this answer




























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      Yes, of course you can, and composers/arrangers do it all the time.






      share|improve this answer





















      • It may also be helpful to add an answer to the "Which of the above will give the best result" part of the question.
        – General Nuisance
        yesterday











      Your Answer








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      7 Answers
      7






      active

      oldest

      votes








      7 Answers
      7






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

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      up vote
      16
      down vote













      All three would be viable options.



      Doubling the parts in unisons or octaves normally would be for bending a unique timbre. Obviously doubling by unison/octave does not create a harmonic change or counterpoint so the main point would be the timbre/tone color.




      Can I have..?




      If part of your concern is about the counterpoint rule against parallel octaves, that doesn't apply to instrumental doubling as an orchestration technique.






      share|improve this answer

















      • 1




        I remember reading that Rimsky-Korsakov suggested that consistently adding a flute to double a string section creates a more solid timbre, or something along those lines. Definitely a valid option! Trumpets and violins sound a little rarer, but might as well try it out.
        – Luke Sawczak
        Nov 19 at 18:54






      • 2




        And there are differences between real instruments and players versus a DAW. Real trumpeters eventually run out a breath and DAW strings will never miss a note! I imagine quite a few orchestrations created in a DAW that would be difficult to pull off with a real orchestra. So there is latitude to experiment more in a DAW.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 19:24










      • In an average non-professional orchestra, having the violins play the main melody and a trumpet a counter-melody is asking for trouble (and for a professional orchestra, you still might want some sort of marking in the score so the trumpeter knows they are not playing the main melody).
        – Alexander Woo
        Nov 19 at 22:19






      • 4




        @AlexanderWoo, I think it would be interesting and helpful to elaborate about why it could be trouble in an answer.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 22:33










      • @AlexanderWoo As someone who played Trumpet in an orchestra for a few years I agree with your point, and would add that I think often composers give these parts to a solo 2nd or 3rd trumpet rather than the principal if they are intending to complement a violin section rather than overpower it. It's also pretty common for these parts to go essentially unheard so that doesn't always work - the skill of the instrumentalists is very important in making your decision and the conductor may have to use his or her own judgment in assigning the parts to get optimal results.
        – Darren Ringer
        2 days ago















      up vote
      16
      down vote













      All three would be viable options.



      Doubling the parts in unisons or octaves normally would be for bending a unique timbre. Obviously doubling by unison/octave does not create a harmonic change or counterpoint so the main point would be the timbre/tone color.




      Can I have..?




      If part of your concern is about the counterpoint rule against parallel octaves, that doesn't apply to instrumental doubling as an orchestration technique.






      share|improve this answer

















      • 1




        I remember reading that Rimsky-Korsakov suggested that consistently adding a flute to double a string section creates a more solid timbre, or something along those lines. Definitely a valid option! Trumpets and violins sound a little rarer, but might as well try it out.
        – Luke Sawczak
        Nov 19 at 18:54






      • 2




        And there are differences between real instruments and players versus a DAW. Real trumpeters eventually run out a breath and DAW strings will never miss a note! I imagine quite a few orchestrations created in a DAW that would be difficult to pull off with a real orchestra. So there is latitude to experiment more in a DAW.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 19:24










      • In an average non-professional orchestra, having the violins play the main melody and a trumpet a counter-melody is asking for trouble (and for a professional orchestra, you still might want some sort of marking in the score so the trumpeter knows they are not playing the main melody).
        – Alexander Woo
        Nov 19 at 22:19






      • 4




        @AlexanderWoo, I think it would be interesting and helpful to elaborate about why it could be trouble in an answer.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 22:33










      • @AlexanderWoo As someone who played Trumpet in an orchestra for a few years I agree with your point, and would add that I think often composers give these parts to a solo 2nd or 3rd trumpet rather than the principal if they are intending to complement a violin section rather than overpower it. It's also pretty common for these parts to go essentially unheard so that doesn't always work - the skill of the instrumentalists is very important in making your decision and the conductor may have to use his or her own judgment in assigning the parts to get optimal results.
        – Darren Ringer
        2 days ago













      up vote
      16
      down vote










      up vote
      16
      down vote









      All three would be viable options.



      Doubling the parts in unisons or octaves normally would be for bending a unique timbre. Obviously doubling by unison/octave does not create a harmonic change or counterpoint so the main point would be the timbre/tone color.




      Can I have..?




      If part of your concern is about the counterpoint rule against parallel octaves, that doesn't apply to instrumental doubling as an orchestration technique.






      share|improve this answer












      All three would be viable options.



      Doubling the parts in unisons or octaves normally would be for bending a unique timbre. Obviously doubling by unison/octave does not create a harmonic change or counterpoint so the main point would be the timbre/tone color.




      Can I have..?




      If part of your concern is about the counterpoint rule against parallel octaves, that doesn't apply to instrumental doubling as an orchestration technique.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered Nov 19 at 17:55









      Michael Curtis

      4,366324




      4,366324








      • 1




        I remember reading that Rimsky-Korsakov suggested that consistently adding a flute to double a string section creates a more solid timbre, or something along those lines. Definitely a valid option! Trumpets and violins sound a little rarer, but might as well try it out.
        – Luke Sawczak
        Nov 19 at 18:54






      • 2




        And there are differences between real instruments and players versus a DAW. Real trumpeters eventually run out a breath and DAW strings will never miss a note! I imagine quite a few orchestrations created in a DAW that would be difficult to pull off with a real orchestra. So there is latitude to experiment more in a DAW.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 19:24










      • In an average non-professional orchestra, having the violins play the main melody and a trumpet a counter-melody is asking for trouble (and for a professional orchestra, you still might want some sort of marking in the score so the trumpeter knows they are not playing the main melody).
        – Alexander Woo
        Nov 19 at 22:19






      • 4




        @AlexanderWoo, I think it would be interesting and helpful to elaborate about why it could be trouble in an answer.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 22:33










      • @AlexanderWoo As someone who played Trumpet in an orchestra for a few years I agree with your point, and would add that I think often composers give these parts to a solo 2nd or 3rd trumpet rather than the principal if they are intending to complement a violin section rather than overpower it. It's also pretty common for these parts to go essentially unheard so that doesn't always work - the skill of the instrumentalists is very important in making your decision and the conductor may have to use his or her own judgment in assigning the parts to get optimal results.
        – Darren Ringer
        2 days ago














      • 1




        I remember reading that Rimsky-Korsakov suggested that consistently adding a flute to double a string section creates a more solid timbre, or something along those lines. Definitely a valid option! Trumpets and violins sound a little rarer, but might as well try it out.
        – Luke Sawczak
        Nov 19 at 18:54






      • 2




        And there are differences between real instruments and players versus a DAW. Real trumpeters eventually run out a breath and DAW strings will never miss a note! I imagine quite a few orchestrations created in a DAW that would be difficult to pull off with a real orchestra. So there is latitude to experiment more in a DAW.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 19:24










      • In an average non-professional orchestra, having the violins play the main melody and a trumpet a counter-melody is asking for trouble (and for a professional orchestra, you still might want some sort of marking in the score so the trumpeter knows they are not playing the main melody).
        – Alexander Woo
        Nov 19 at 22:19






      • 4




        @AlexanderWoo, I think it would be interesting and helpful to elaborate about why it could be trouble in an answer.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 22:33










      • @AlexanderWoo As someone who played Trumpet in an orchestra for a few years I agree with your point, and would add that I think often composers give these parts to a solo 2nd or 3rd trumpet rather than the principal if they are intending to complement a violin section rather than overpower it. It's also pretty common for these parts to go essentially unheard so that doesn't always work - the skill of the instrumentalists is very important in making your decision and the conductor may have to use his or her own judgment in assigning the parts to get optimal results.
        – Darren Ringer
        2 days ago








      1




      1




      I remember reading that Rimsky-Korsakov suggested that consistently adding a flute to double a string section creates a more solid timbre, or something along those lines. Definitely a valid option! Trumpets and violins sound a little rarer, but might as well try it out.
      – Luke Sawczak
      Nov 19 at 18:54




      I remember reading that Rimsky-Korsakov suggested that consistently adding a flute to double a string section creates a more solid timbre, or something along those lines. Definitely a valid option! Trumpets and violins sound a little rarer, but might as well try it out.
      – Luke Sawczak
      Nov 19 at 18:54




      2




      2




      And there are differences between real instruments and players versus a DAW. Real trumpeters eventually run out a breath and DAW strings will never miss a note! I imagine quite a few orchestrations created in a DAW that would be difficult to pull off with a real orchestra. So there is latitude to experiment more in a DAW.
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 19:24




      And there are differences between real instruments and players versus a DAW. Real trumpeters eventually run out a breath and DAW strings will never miss a note! I imagine quite a few orchestrations created in a DAW that would be difficult to pull off with a real orchestra. So there is latitude to experiment more in a DAW.
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 19:24












      In an average non-professional orchestra, having the violins play the main melody and a trumpet a counter-melody is asking for trouble (and for a professional orchestra, you still might want some sort of marking in the score so the trumpeter knows they are not playing the main melody).
      – Alexander Woo
      Nov 19 at 22:19




      In an average non-professional orchestra, having the violins play the main melody and a trumpet a counter-melody is asking for trouble (and for a professional orchestra, you still might want some sort of marking in the score so the trumpeter knows they are not playing the main melody).
      – Alexander Woo
      Nov 19 at 22:19




      4




      4




      @AlexanderWoo, I think it would be interesting and helpful to elaborate about why it could be trouble in an answer.
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 22:33




      @AlexanderWoo, I think it would be interesting and helpful to elaborate about why it could be trouble in an answer.
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 22:33












      @AlexanderWoo As someone who played Trumpet in an orchestra for a few years I agree with your point, and would add that I think often composers give these parts to a solo 2nd or 3rd trumpet rather than the principal if they are intending to complement a violin section rather than overpower it. It's also pretty common for these parts to go essentially unheard so that doesn't always work - the skill of the instrumentalists is very important in making your decision and the conductor may have to use his or her own judgment in assigning the parts to get optimal results.
      – Darren Ringer
      2 days ago




      @AlexanderWoo As someone who played Trumpet in an orchestra for a few years I agree with your point, and would add that I think often composers give these parts to a solo 2nd or 3rd trumpet rather than the principal if they are intending to complement a violin section rather than overpower it. It's also pretty common for these parts to go essentially unheard so that doesn't always work - the skill of the instrumentalists is very important in making your decision and the conductor may have to use his or her own judgment in assigning the parts to get optimal results.
      – Darren Ringer
      2 days ago










      up vote
      6
      down vote













      There is nothing theoretically wrong with any of your ideas. Making these types of orchestrating decisions is what an arranger does. Each of these options will create a different effect on the listener. I would recommend creating three different versions, listening to them, and then decided which works best for the situation.



      You could even use all three ideas by repeating the melody with a different orchestration each time.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 1




        Just to build off this answer a bit, three different version could be incorporated into some repeats in the score.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 17:58










      • @MichaelCurtis Good point. I've modified the answer to include your suggestion.
        – Peter
        Nov 19 at 18:02















      up vote
      6
      down vote













      There is nothing theoretically wrong with any of your ideas. Making these types of orchestrating decisions is what an arranger does. Each of these options will create a different effect on the listener. I would recommend creating three different versions, listening to them, and then decided which works best for the situation.



      You could even use all three ideas by repeating the melody with a different orchestration each time.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 1




        Just to build off this answer a bit, three different version could be incorporated into some repeats in the score.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 17:58










      • @MichaelCurtis Good point. I've modified the answer to include your suggestion.
        – Peter
        Nov 19 at 18:02













      up vote
      6
      down vote










      up vote
      6
      down vote









      There is nothing theoretically wrong with any of your ideas. Making these types of orchestrating decisions is what an arranger does. Each of these options will create a different effect on the listener. I would recommend creating three different versions, listening to them, and then decided which works best for the situation.



      You could even use all three ideas by repeating the melody with a different orchestration each time.






      share|improve this answer














      There is nothing theoretically wrong with any of your ideas. Making these types of orchestrating decisions is what an arranger does. Each of these options will create a different effect on the listener. I would recommend creating three different versions, listening to them, and then decided which works best for the situation.



      You could even use all three ideas by repeating the melody with a different orchestration each time.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited Nov 19 at 18:01

























      answered Nov 19 at 17:54









      Peter

      6159




      6159








      • 1




        Just to build off this answer a bit, three different version could be incorporated into some repeats in the score.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 17:58










      • @MichaelCurtis Good point. I've modified the answer to include your suggestion.
        – Peter
        Nov 19 at 18:02














      • 1




        Just to build off this answer a bit, three different version could be incorporated into some repeats in the score.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 17:58










      • @MichaelCurtis Good point. I've modified the answer to include your suggestion.
        – Peter
        Nov 19 at 18:02








      1




      1




      Just to build off this answer a bit, three different version could be incorporated into some repeats in the score.
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 17:58




      Just to build off this answer a bit, three different version could be incorporated into some repeats in the score.
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 17:58












      @MichaelCurtis Good point. I've modified the answer to include your suggestion.
      – Peter
      Nov 19 at 18:02




      @MichaelCurtis Good point. I've modified the answer to include your suggestion.
      – Peter
      Nov 19 at 18:02










      up vote
      2
      down vote













      Take a listen to Bolero by Ravel.



      You can think of it as a study on varying instrument combinations while maintaining the same the rhythm and melody. You can really start to hear the effect at minute 6:20.



      See also: http://theidiomaticorchestra.net/parallel-dobling/






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Mitch Roe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.


















      • Drat. You got there first.
        – nigel222
        2 days ago










      • Note that some of the most striking effects in Bolero are due to parallel writing in intervals other than octaves. For example, the "pipe organ" effect has one piccolo a perfect fifth above the melody, and the other piccolo a major tenth above.
        – Michael Seifert
        2 days ago















      up vote
      2
      down vote













      Take a listen to Bolero by Ravel.



      You can think of it as a study on varying instrument combinations while maintaining the same the rhythm and melody. You can really start to hear the effect at minute 6:20.



      See also: http://theidiomaticorchestra.net/parallel-dobling/






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Mitch Roe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.


















      • Drat. You got there first.
        – nigel222
        2 days ago










      • Note that some of the most striking effects in Bolero are due to parallel writing in intervals other than octaves. For example, the "pipe organ" effect has one piccolo a perfect fifth above the melody, and the other piccolo a major tenth above.
        – Michael Seifert
        2 days ago













      up vote
      2
      down vote










      up vote
      2
      down vote









      Take a listen to Bolero by Ravel.



      You can think of it as a study on varying instrument combinations while maintaining the same the rhythm and melody. You can really start to hear the effect at minute 6:20.



      See also: http://theidiomaticorchestra.net/parallel-dobling/






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Mitch Roe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      Take a listen to Bolero by Ravel.



      You can think of it as a study on varying instrument combinations while maintaining the same the rhythm and melody. You can really start to hear the effect at minute 6:20.



      See also: http://theidiomaticorchestra.net/parallel-dobling/







      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Mitch Roe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer






      New contributor




      Mitch Roe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      answered Nov 20 at 1:10









      Mitch Roe

      211




      211




      New contributor




      Mitch Roe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.





      New contributor





      Mitch Roe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      Mitch Roe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      • Drat. You got there first.
        – nigel222
        2 days ago










      • Note that some of the most striking effects in Bolero are due to parallel writing in intervals other than octaves. For example, the "pipe organ" effect has one piccolo a perfect fifth above the melody, and the other piccolo a major tenth above.
        – Michael Seifert
        2 days ago


















      • Drat. You got there first.
        – nigel222
        2 days ago










      • Note that some of the most striking effects in Bolero are due to parallel writing in intervals other than octaves. For example, the "pipe organ" effect has one piccolo a perfect fifth above the melody, and the other piccolo a major tenth above.
        – Michael Seifert
        2 days ago
















      Drat. You got there first.
      – nigel222
      2 days ago




      Drat. You got there first.
      – nigel222
      2 days ago












      Note that some of the most striking effects in Bolero are due to parallel writing in intervals other than octaves. For example, the "pipe organ" effect has one piccolo a perfect fifth above the melody, and the other piccolo a major tenth above.
      – Michael Seifert
      2 days ago




      Note that some of the most striking effects in Bolero are due to parallel writing in intervals other than octaves. For example, the "pipe organ" effect has one piccolo a perfect fifth above the melody, and the other piccolo a major tenth above.
      – Michael Seifert
      2 days ago










      up vote
      0
      down vote













      Think of combinations of instruments playing in parallel unisons, fifths, and octaves as though they were kinds of composite instruments. Then an arranger writing for violin, flute, and cello wouldn't have just three instruments at his disposal, but also many more like the univiolinflute, the octaviolinflute, the suboctaviolinflute, the univiolincello, the octaviolincello, the doubloctabiolincello, the octaflutecello, the doubloctaflutecello, etc.



      The reason for the rule against parallel octaves or unisons is that having groups of two or more instruments play parallel octaves or unisons will often make it sound as though one has switched to using a different set of instruments. This can be a good thing if done at places where such a switch would make musical sense, but bad if such switches seem to occur willy-nilly without rhyme or reason.



      The goal of music theory is not to identify things that are "good" or "bad", but rather to allow composers to identify how things are likely to be perceived. If a composer wants part of a phrase to sound as though it's produced by a univiolinflute while other parts are played by a distinct violin and flute, great--use parallel intervals to achieve that effect. The music theory rules against parallel intervals doesn't say such things are "bad", but rather say that parallel intervals are likely to create such an effect whether the composer wants it or not, and composers should avoid them except when that effect is wanted.






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        The reason for the rule against parallel octaves etc. is to achieve independence of voices for a polyphonic texture. Other than that there really isn't a problem with parallel writing.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 21:23










      • @MichaelCurtis: One could use the term "texture" to describe the effect I attribute to "composite instruments"; places where voices move in parallel unisons, fifths, or octaves will have a different texture from places where they don't. The same principle I've alluded to will apply: changing textures when it makes musical sense is often good, but changing textures arbitrarily generally isn't.
        – supercat
        Nov 19 at 22:19










      • I'm using 'texture' in the academic, musical sense: monophonic, homophonic, polyphonic, etc. - not in the generic sense like 'smooth' or 'rough' - only to clarify the point about a "rule"
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 22:30















      up vote
      0
      down vote













      Think of combinations of instruments playing in parallel unisons, fifths, and octaves as though they were kinds of composite instruments. Then an arranger writing for violin, flute, and cello wouldn't have just three instruments at his disposal, but also many more like the univiolinflute, the octaviolinflute, the suboctaviolinflute, the univiolincello, the octaviolincello, the doubloctabiolincello, the octaflutecello, the doubloctaflutecello, etc.



      The reason for the rule against parallel octaves or unisons is that having groups of two or more instruments play parallel octaves or unisons will often make it sound as though one has switched to using a different set of instruments. This can be a good thing if done at places where such a switch would make musical sense, but bad if such switches seem to occur willy-nilly without rhyme or reason.



      The goal of music theory is not to identify things that are "good" or "bad", but rather to allow composers to identify how things are likely to be perceived. If a composer wants part of a phrase to sound as though it's produced by a univiolinflute while other parts are played by a distinct violin and flute, great--use parallel intervals to achieve that effect. The music theory rules against parallel intervals doesn't say such things are "bad", but rather say that parallel intervals are likely to create such an effect whether the composer wants it or not, and composers should avoid them except when that effect is wanted.






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        The reason for the rule against parallel octaves etc. is to achieve independence of voices for a polyphonic texture. Other than that there really isn't a problem with parallel writing.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 21:23










      • @MichaelCurtis: One could use the term "texture" to describe the effect I attribute to "composite instruments"; places where voices move in parallel unisons, fifths, or octaves will have a different texture from places where they don't. The same principle I've alluded to will apply: changing textures when it makes musical sense is often good, but changing textures arbitrarily generally isn't.
        – supercat
        Nov 19 at 22:19










      • I'm using 'texture' in the academic, musical sense: monophonic, homophonic, polyphonic, etc. - not in the generic sense like 'smooth' or 'rough' - only to clarify the point about a "rule"
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 22:30













      up vote
      0
      down vote










      up vote
      0
      down vote









      Think of combinations of instruments playing in parallel unisons, fifths, and octaves as though they were kinds of composite instruments. Then an arranger writing for violin, flute, and cello wouldn't have just three instruments at his disposal, but also many more like the univiolinflute, the octaviolinflute, the suboctaviolinflute, the univiolincello, the octaviolincello, the doubloctabiolincello, the octaflutecello, the doubloctaflutecello, etc.



      The reason for the rule against parallel octaves or unisons is that having groups of two or more instruments play parallel octaves or unisons will often make it sound as though one has switched to using a different set of instruments. This can be a good thing if done at places where such a switch would make musical sense, but bad if such switches seem to occur willy-nilly without rhyme or reason.



      The goal of music theory is not to identify things that are "good" or "bad", but rather to allow composers to identify how things are likely to be perceived. If a composer wants part of a phrase to sound as though it's produced by a univiolinflute while other parts are played by a distinct violin and flute, great--use parallel intervals to achieve that effect. The music theory rules against parallel intervals doesn't say such things are "bad", but rather say that parallel intervals are likely to create such an effect whether the composer wants it or not, and composers should avoid them except when that effect is wanted.






      share|improve this answer












      Think of combinations of instruments playing in parallel unisons, fifths, and octaves as though they were kinds of composite instruments. Then an arranger writing for violin, flute, and cello wouldn't have just three instruments at his disposal, but also many more like the univiolinflute, the octaviolinflute, the suboctaviolinflute, the univiolincello, the octaviolincello, the doubloctabiolincello, the octaflutecello, the doubloctaflutecello, etc.



      The reason for the rule against parallel octaves or unisons is that having groups of two or more instruments play parallel octaves or unisons will often make it sound as though one has switched to using a different set of instruments. This can be a good thing if done at places where such a switch would make musical sense, but bad if such switches seem to occur willy-nilly without rhyme or reason.



      The goal of music theory is not to identify things that are "good" or "bad", but rather to allow composers to identify how things are likely to be perceived. If a composer wants part of a phrase to sound as though it's produced by a univiolinflute while other parts are played by a distinct violin and flute, great--use parallel intervals to achieve that effect. The music theory rules against parallel intervals doesn't say such things are "bad", but rather say that parallel intervals are likely to create such an effect whether the composer wants it or not, and composers should avoid them except when that effect is wanted.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered Nov 19 at 21:04









      supercat

      2,272914




      2,272914








      • 2




        The reason for the rule against parallel octaves etc. is to achieve independence of voices for a polyphonic texture. Other than that there really isn't a problem with parallel writing.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 21:23










      • @MichaelCurtis: One could use the term "texture" to describe the effect I attribute to "composite instruments"; places where voices move in parallel unisons, fifths, or octaves will have a different texture from places where they don't. The same principle I've alluded to will apply: changing textures when it makes musical sense is often good, but changing textures arbitrarily generally isn't.
        – supercat
        Nov 19 at 22:19










      • I'm using 'texture' in the academic, musical sense: monophonic, homophonic, polyphonic, etc. - not in the generic sense like 'smooth' or 'rough' - only to clarify the point about a "rule"
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 22:30














      • 2




        The reason for the rule against parallel octaves etc. is to achieve independence of voices for a polyphonic texture. Other than that there really isn't a problem with parallel writing.
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 21:23










      • @MichaelCurtis: One could use the term "texture" to describe the effect I attribute to "composite instruments"; places where voices move in parallel unisons, fifths, or octaves will have a different texture from places where they don't. The same principle I've alluded to will apply: changing textures when it makes musical sense is often good, but changing textures arbitrarily generally isn't.
        – supercat
        Nov 19 at 22:19










      • I'm using 'texture' in the academic, musical sense: monophonic, homophonic, polyphonic, etc. - not in the generic sense like 'smooth' or 'rough' - only to clarify the point about a "rule"
        – Michael Curtis
        Nov 19 at 22:30








      2




      2




      The reason for the rule against parallel octaves etc. is to achieve independence of voices for a polyphonic texture. Other than that there really isn't a problem with parallel writing.
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 21:23




      The reason for the rule against parallel octaves etc. is to achieve independence of voices for a polyphonic texture. Other than that there really isn't a problem with parallel writing.
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 21:23












      @MichaelCurtis: One could use the term "texture" to describe the effect I attribute to "composite instruments"; places where voices move in parallel unisons, fifths, or octaves will have a different texture from places where they don't. The same principle I've alluded to will apply: changing textures when it makes musical sense is often good, but changing textures arbitrarily generally isn't.
      – supercat
      Nov 19 at 22:19




      @MichaelCurtis: One could use the term "texture" to describe the effect I attribute to "composite instruments"; places where voices move in parallel unisons, fifths, or octaves will have a different texture from places where they don't. The same principle I've alluded to will apply: changing textures when it makes musical sense is often good, but changing textures arbitrarily generally isn't.
      – supercat
      Nov 19 at 22:19












      I'm using 'texture' in the academic, musical sense: monophonic, homophonic, polyphonic, etc. - not in the generic sense like 'smooth' or 'rough' - only to clarify the point about a "rule"
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 22:30




      I'm using 'texture' in the academic, musical sense: monophonic, homophonic, polyphonic, etc. - not in the generic sense like 'smooth' or 'rough' - only to clarify the point about a "rule"
      – Michael Curtis
      Nov 19 at 22:30










      up vote
      0
      down vote













      All your proposed schemes are viable, on the surface.
      Without seeing what the violinists are playing, having the Trumpet double them is possible given that the parts are not unplayable by a trumpeter. If it's too high in the range, your option of doubling at the octave is possible. If you don't have space for the trumpet to breath you might consider trading lines between members of the trumpet section. If you write in a key that is not particularly trumpet friendly and approachable a professional will certainly tell you. As for melody counter melody.... Go for it, it might work, it might not.






      share|improve this answer

























        up vote
        0
        down vote













        All your proposed schemes are viable, on the surface.
        Without seeing what the violinists are playing, having the Trumpet double them is possible given that the parts are not unplayable by a trumpeter. If it's too high in the range, your option of doubling at the octave is possible. If you don't have space for the trumpet to breath you might consider trading lines between members of the trumpet section. If you write in a key that is not particularly trumpet friendly and approachable a professional will certainly tell you. As for melody counter melody.... Go for it, it might work, it might not.






        share|improve this answer























          up vote
          0
          down vote










          up vote
          0
          down vote









          All your proposed schemes are viable, on the surface.
          Without seeing what the violinists are playing, having the Trumpet double them is possible given that the parts are not unplayable by a trumpeter. If it's too high in the range, your option of doubling at the octave is possible. If you don't have space for the trumpet to breath you might consider trading lines between members of the trumpet section. If you write in a key that is not particularly trumpet friendly and approachable a professional will certainly tell you. As for melody counter melody.... Go for it, it might work, it might not.






          share|improve this answer












          All your proposed schemes are viable, on the surface.
          Without seeing what the violinists are playing, having the Trumpet double them is possible given that the parts are not unplayable by a trumpeter. If it's too high in the range, your option of doubling at the octave is possible. If you don't have space for the trumpet to breath you might consider trading lines between members of the trumpet section. If you write in a key that is not particularly trumpet friendly and approachable a professional will certainly tell you. As for melody counter melody.... Go for it, it might work, it might not.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 2 days ago









          Neil A Bliss

          111




          111






















              up vote
              0
              down vote













              Way outside your context, but in Simon & Garfunkel's "The Boxer", the instrumental break is doubled cornet and pedal steel guitar. There are points where brass aspects stick out, and times where it sounds more steel. I really like it.



              Unless you're is a situation where you can't change the orchestration when you get to the practice point, I'd give doubling the melody a shot.






              share|improve this answer

























                up vote
                0
                down vote













                Way outside your context, but in Simon & Garfunkel's "The Boxer", the instrumental break is doubled cornet and pedal steel guitar. There are points where brass aspects stick out, and times where it sounds more steel. I really like it.



                Unless you're is a situation where you can't change the orchestration when you get to the practice point, I'd give doubling the melody a shot.






                share|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  Way outside your context, but in Simon & Garfunkel's "The Boxer", the instrumental break is doubled cornet and pedal steel guitar. There are points where brass aspects stick out, and times where it sounds more steel. I really like it.



                  Unless you're is a situation where you can't change the orchestration when you get to the practice point, I'd give doubling the melody a shot.






                  share|improve this answer












                  Way outside your context, but in Simon & Garfunkel's "The Boxer", the instrumental break is doubled cornet and pedal steel guitar. There are points where brass aspects stick out, and times where it sounds more steel. I really like it.



                  Unless you're is a situation where you can't change the orchestration when you get to the practice point, I'd give doubling the melody a shot.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered yesterday









                  Dave Jacoby

                  8,36412350




                  8,36412350






















                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      Yes, of course you can, and composers/arrangers do it all the time.






                      share|improve this answer





















                      • It may also be helpful to add an answer to the "Which of the above will give the best result" part of the question.
                        – General Nuisance
                        yesterday















                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      Yes, of course you can, and composers/arrangers do it all the time.






                      share|improve this answer





















                      • It may also be helpful to add an answer to the "Which of the above will give the best result" part of the question.
                        – General Nuisance
                        yesterday













                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote









                      Yes, of course you can, and composers/arrangers do it all the time.






                      share|improve this answer












                      Yes, of course you can, and composers/arrangers do it all the time.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered yesterday









                      Laurence Payne

                      30k1451




                      30k1451












                      • It may also be helpful to add an answer to the "Which of the above will give the best result" part of the question.
                        – General Nuisance
                        yesterday


















                      • It may also be helpful to add an answer to the "Which of the above will give the best result" part of the question.
                        – General Nuisance
                        yesterday
















                      It may also be helpful to add an answer to the "Which of the above will give the best result" part of the question.
                      – General Nuisance
                      yesterday




                      It may also be helpful to add an answer to the "Which of the above will give the best result" part of the question.
                      – General Nuisance
                      yesterday


















                       

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